# MVP and Cy Young ballots **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 26, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687 "2011-09-26T19:35:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/21 "2011-09-28T18:25:18Z")
My votes, if I had any: **Cy Young Award:** Justin Verlander Roy Halladay **MVP Awards:** Jose Bautista Matt Kemp (I wanted to vote for Ryan Braun, but finally decided if I wasn’t going to hold the Blue Jays’ bad record against bautista, I couldn’t hold the Dodgers’ record against Kemp). One thought on Verlander for MVP: I have no problem with starting pitchers winning the MVP award, and wish it would happen more often. IF Justin Verlander wins, I won’t be outraged. BUT… People like to point out that, without Verlander, the Tigers would barely be above .500, and that’s true. It just doesn’t prove what a lot of people think it means. Verlander is a very, very good pitcher, but contrary to widespread belief, he is NOT winning games all by himself. The Tigers are not an anemic hitting team that Verlander is carrying on his back. They are, in fact, a very good offensive team that scores more runs than most A.L. teams. The only reason the Tigers play .500 when Verlander is starting is that Verlander is the ONLY good starting pitcher the Tigers have. The rest of their starting rotation STINKS! Verlander is very deserving of the Cy Young Award, and he’s not a terrible choice for MVP. But any halfway decent pitcher SHOULD be able to win a lot of games in Detroit. Sadly, Verlander is their ONLY halfway decent pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/22 "2011-09-28T18:53:20Z")
ASTORIAN should quit pontificating, He is dead wrong. Fister has outpitched Verlander since he came to Detroit, His ERA is 1.89 and he is 8-1… Shertzer is a solid pitcher. When on, Perry can win. Benoit and Valverde have been lights out. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/23 "2011-09-28T19:46:34Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > ASTORIAN should quit pontificating, He is dead wrong. Fister has outpitched Verlander since he came to Detroit, His ERA is 1.89 and he is 8-1.. Shertzer is a solid pitcher. When on, Perry can win. > Benoit and Valverde have been lights out. You really want to tell me Scherzer, Penny, Coke and Porcello haven’t been terrible? Really? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/24 "2011-09-28T19:59:31Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You really want to tell me Scherzer, Penny, Coke and Porcello haven’t been terrible? Really? It is not, however, the case that “the rest of their starting rotation stinks,” as you claimed. Their starting rotation includes Doug Fister, and he doesn’t stink. A good 1-2 is sometimes all you need in the playoffs. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/25 "2011-09-28T20:46:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Wait, what? > > Brandon Morrow? > > Huh? My (flawed) methodology:If you’re #1 in a major old-school stat, you get on my ballot. Morrow leads in K/9. The better (and more time consuming) method: Take top say 10 in each stat and average their ranking. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/26 "2011-09-28T20:58:08Z")
My last ballot: AL CY 1.Verlander (easily could win MVP) 2.Weaver 3.Shields 4.Haren (big falloff) 5.Holland 6.Morrow 7.Cahill AL MVP 1.Cabrera 2.Ellsbury 3.A-Gon 4.Bautista (Big fall) 5.Granderson 6.Young NL CY 1.Cain (Top 4 close) 2.Kershaw 3.Halladay 4.Lee (drop) 5.Kennedy (BIG fall) 6.Greinke 7.Morton ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/27 "2011-09-28T21:02:00Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > I totally agree. How can you be MVP if you only play once every five days?. Because every five days you are controlling the ball up to 100 +/- times. How many times does a center fielder get to affect the play, even when playing every day? . ---
**Author:** ![Moonchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Moonchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonchild)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/28 "2011-09-28T23:43:54Z")
Slight hijack: is the Dodgers duo (almost two Triple Crowns!) on such a mediocre team unprecedented? As a Dodger fan, I’m aware that: 1962: Maury Wills (MVP, edged teammate Tommy Davis) & Don Drysdale (\*Cy Young) = lost in NL playoff after finishing regular season tied for 1st; 1974: Steve Garvey (MVP) & Mike Marshall (Cy Young, edged teammate Andy Messersmith) = lost in World Series; 1988: Kirk Gibson (MVP) & Orel Hershiser (Cy Young) = won World Series. 2011: Kemp & Kershaw = way distant also-rans who were out of the race by May. (And there’s no effing way we’re going to re-sign either of them with the same ownership.) [Bill Simmons] I will now throw up in my own mouth. [/Bill Simmons] \*Only one Cy Young Award given in all of MLB until 1967. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/29 "2011-09-29T01:58:44Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You really want to tell me Scherzer, Penny, Coke and Porcello haven’t been terrible? Really? Coke’s not a starter. Scherzer has 15 wins; 174 Ks; and in the past 30 days he is second on the team in Ks behind Fister with 34. Not too shabby. Porcello has 14 wins and a 3.71 ERA in the last five starts. Not tremendous, but not too shabby. Penny blows and will be lucky if he’s on the roster come Friday. The only two of your list who could be described as “terrible” are Coke and Penny, and neither of them will be in the starting rotation in the post season. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/30 "2011-09-29T03:55:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is not, however, the case that “the rest of their starting rotation stinks,” as you claimed. Their starting rotation includes Doug Fister, and he doesn’t stink. > > A good 1-2 is sometimes all you need in the playoffs. True enough, Fister has been very good. But that doesn’t negate the point I was making. Justin VErlander clearly deserves the Cy Young Award, and he’ll win it hands down. But a big part of the reason he’s gotten so much MVP talk is the perception that, “Without Verlander, they’re a .500 team.” That would seem to imply that the Tigers don’t have a potent lineup. In fact, they DO have a very strong lineup. They score about 5 runs a game, which should be enough to win steadily, if your starting pitchers are any good at all. For much of the season, their starting pitching WASN’T any good at all, once you got past Verlander. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/31 "2011-09-29T04:09:20Z")
> [@Moonchild](#): > > Slight hijack: is the Dodgers duo (almost two Triple Crowns!) on such a mediocre team unprecedented? There’s the 1987 Cubs, who had Andre Dawson (MVP) and Rick Sutcliffe (CY - 2nd; Philly closer Steve Bedrosian won, this was also Nolan Ryan’s freaky 8-16 year with the best ERA in the league). Cubs were only 76-85 that year. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/32 "2011-09-29T04:19:13Z")
Also in 1987, the 78-84 Red Sox had Cy Young winner Roger Clemens and Wade Boggs, who only finished 9th in the MVP voting but led the league in OBP, OPS, and wins above replacement. That was the year Boggs hit 24 homers - his second best total was 11. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/33 "2011-09-29T04:59:37Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > My last ballot: > > AL CY > 1.Verlander (easily could win MVP) > 2.Weaver > 3.Shields > 4.Haren > (big falloff) > 5.Holland > 6.Morrow > 7.Cahill Your anti-Yankee bias is showing. [Take a look at these stats please.](http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2011-pitching-leaders.shtml) There is no way that Sabathia shouldn’t be top 5 - he’s pretty fairly even with Haren, and to say that Cahill is a more valuable pitcher is crazy. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/34 "2011-09-29T05:43:26Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You really want to tell me Scherzer, Penny, Coke and Porcello haven’t been terrible? Really? Sorry you can not read. Penny is a disaster which I believe i did not mention. Coke is a good long reliever but a failed starter. Note, he is not starting. Porcello could have won 15 today. That is not bad. He is only 23 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Yorikke](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yorikke/32/4335_2.png) [@Yorikke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorikke)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/35 "2011-09-29T08:38:49Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > My last ballot: > > NL CY > 1.Cain (Top 4 close) > 2.Kershaw > 3.Halladay > 4.Lee > (drop) > 5.Kennedy > (BIG fall) > 6.Greinke > 7.Morton Man, I’m a 100% Giants fan, but Cain for the Cy is a stretch. A great year, but arguably the third best year of their rotation, after Lincecum and Vogelsong… Joe ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/36 "2011-09-29T16:07:26Z")
> [@wheresgeorge04](#): > > Man, I’m a 100% Giants fan, but Cain for the Cy is a stretch. A great year, but arguably the third best year of their rotation, after Lincecum and Vogelsong… > > Joe Gotta be Grienke. he won it with 16-8. He was even better this year with 16-6. Those are Cy Young victory totals. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/37 "2011-09-29T16:36:49Z")
> [@Moonchild](#): > > Slight hijack: is the Dodgers duo (almost two Triple Crowns!) on such a mediocre team unprecedented? > > As a Dodger fan, I’m aware that: > > 1962: Maury Wills (MVP, edged teammate Tommy Davis) & Don Drysdale (\*Cy Young) = lost in NL playoff after finishing regular season tied for 1st; > > . Well, DUOS like that are hard to find. But several Triple Crown winners have played for mediocre or bad. In 1933, the Phillies finished 7th out of 8 teams, despite Chuck Klein’s Triple Crown season. Ducky Medwick won the Triple Crown in 1937, but the Cards finished 4th. Now, if we stick to GOOD teams, the 1948 Cardinals had two guys who came CLOSE to Triple Crowns: Stan Musial (just a hair short in homers) and pitcher Harry Brecheen, who led the NL in ERA and strikeouts. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/38 "2011-09-29T18:20:01Z")
Now that the season’s over… AL MVP: 1. Justin Verlander, Detroit 2. Jose Bautista, Toronto 3. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit 4. Jacoby Ellsbury, Boston 5. Alex Avila, Detroit Verlander was that good. Bautista lost the MVP over the last month, as he didn’t hit all that well. Who saw Jacoby Ellsbury being a 30-homer guy this year? NL MVP: 1. Matt Kemp, Los Angeles 2. Ryan Braun, Milwaukee 3. Jose Reyes, New York 4. Roy Halladay, Philadelphia 5. Lance Berkman, St. Louis No, the Dodgers didn’t make the playoffs, but they aren’t a bad team, **and it’s an individual award.** I do think a team’s record has to be considered but Kemp was the best player in the league by a really wide margin. It’s because of Kemp that the Dodgers had a winning record. AL CY: 1. Justin Verlander, Detroit 2. Jered Weaver, Anaheim-Los Angeles-California 3. C.C. Sabathia, New York 4. James Shields, Tampa Bay 5. Ricky Romero, Toronto Verlander is wayyyyy ahead. NL CY: 1. Roy Halladay, Philadelphia 2. Clay Kershaw, Los Angeles 3. Cliff Lee, Philadelphia 4. Cole Hamels, Philadelphia 5. Ian Kennedy, Arizona I know everyone’s giving this award to Kershaw but I don’t understand why. Halladay had an ERA only .09 higher in basically an identical number of innings playing in a far more hitting-friendly park, and pitching against a division with better offenses. I think it’s Halladay by a nose. AL ROY: 1. Alexi Ogando, Texas 2. Ivan Nova, New York (he’s a rookie, right?) 3. Michael Pineda, Seattle 4. J.P. Arencibia, Toronto 5. Brett Lawrie, Toronto I suppose everyone will laugh at the inclusion of Lawrie but look at his stats; he created more wins in 40-odd games than most players do in 140. Ivan Nova doesn’t get enough talk here - dude pitched well. The guy who might actually win this, Mark Trumbo, doesn’t even make my ballot; he’s just a big slow guy who hits home runs but doesn’t get on base a lot or have any defensive value. He reminds me of Ron Kittle. NL ROY: 1. Craig Kimbrel, Atlanta 2. Vance Worley, Philadelphia 3. Danny Espinosa, Washington 4. Josh Collmeter, Arizona 5. Wilson Ramos, Washington Despite the late season meltdown Kimbrel had a hell of a year. Philadelphia’s so loaded with pitching it seems almost ridiculous that they came up with Worley. It’s unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Moonchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Moonchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonchild)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/39 "2011-09-29T18:50:14Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Well, DUOS like that are hard to find. But several Triple Crown winners have played for mediocre or bad. In 1933, the Phillies finished 7th out of 8 teams, despite Chuck Klein’s Triple Crown season. Ducky Medwick won the Triple Crown in 1937, but the Cards finished 4th. > > Now, if we stick to GOOD teams, the 1948 Cardinals had two guys who came CLOSE to Triple Crowns: Stan Musial (just a hair short in homers) and pitcher Harry Brecheen, who led the NL in ERA and strikeouts. So, in other words, YES, it’s unprecedented (assuming Kemp wins the MVP, not a guarantee). Eh, maybe McBankrupt sells the team and we keep Kemp & Kershaw somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Moonchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Moonchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonchild)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687/40 "2011-09-29T18:52:13Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > There’s the 1987 Cubs, who had Andre Dawson (MVP) and Rick Sutcliffe (CY - 2nd; Philly closer Steve Bedrosian won, this was also Nolan Ryan’s freaky 8-16 year with the best ERA in the league). Cubs were only 76-85 that year. Okay, that’s pretty close, but beating out Bedrock for a Cy Young is no small task. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mvp-and-cy-young-ballots/597687.md?page=3)