# My 90 year old neighbor is shot down by the po-pos **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392 "2006-11-22T05:07:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/241 "2006-11-25T16:09:37Z")
> [@](#): > > **Lissa** said: > I do. I do not believe that the cops will tamper with the evidence. Given the huge amount of media attention and all of the watchdog groups which are focused on this event, I doubt if they could even if they wanted to. Guess you don’t believe they’ll browbeat a spoon-fed confession out of a retarded kid either, but they did it in West Memphis. > [@](#): > > Right now, those cops are under a microscope. The IAD is breathing down their necks, their service records are being scrutinized and the old woman’s family probably has a team of lawyers watching every single step of the investigation. If she was poor, I highly doubt it. > [@](#): > > Politicians are calling the department making demands and the chief is probably living on Excedrine and coffee. They’ll cover for their own in the end, though. It’s hard enough when there’s video of the cops screwing up and committing police brutality, and here the only person who can contradict their story (other than the cops themselves, which they have done) is dead. > [@](#): > > The “blue wall” does exist, but it’s not what most people think that it is. It exists to cover for your partner if he’s late for work or if he has a drinking problem or if he forgot to turn in a form on time. They keep a drunk on the street with a badge and a gun. Yeah, it pretty much is as bad as most people think it is. > [@](#): > > They back one another up when they know that their partner didn’t do anything wrong and they try to present a united front. Which their partner can do no wrong. > [@](#): > > However, cops don’t want to work with someone who’s dangerous. They won’t stick their necks out for someone who is doing things that are wrong because it puts them in danger, both physically and legally. And you know all this because you work in a museum and your hubby works in a prison, so you’re the absolute expert here and your word is gold. > [@](#): > > **Apos** said: > Again, I find the idea that I could intelligibly hear even someone shouting “POLICE” at the top of their lungs patently ridiculous: a loudspeaker might not even cut it, especially if I was asleep and it was what woke me to the sound of crashing noises. I can’t hear someone yelling from outside the house. I can hear a door being smashed in with a battering ram (I don’t think a kick will do it against the deadbolts). ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/242 "2006-11-25T16:23:09Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Guess you don’t believe they’ll browbeat a spoon-fed confession out of a retarded kid either, but they did it in West Memphis. [/quote] One story about bad cops proves that they’re all bad? > [@](#): > > If she was poor, I highly doubt it. Are you kidding me? The grand daughter probably has to shove lawyers out of the way to go out to get the paper. I \*guarantee \*that she’s been positively \*deluged \*with offers to take this case on for free. > [@](#): > > They’ll cover for their own in the end, though. It’s hard enough when there’s video of the cops screwing up and committing police brutality, and here the only person who can contradict their story (other than the cops themselves, which they have done) is dead. What looks like brutality to the Average Joe is often ordinary police tactics. Just because it \*looks \*brutal to the untrained eye doesn’t mean the cops did anything wrong. There might even be video of this incident. No one has said. > [@](#): > > They keep a drunk on the street with a badge and a gun. Yeah, it pretty much is as bad as most people think it is. Just because someone is an alcoholic doesn’t mean they’re unable to do their jobs properly. If they’re drinking on the job, _that’s_ a problem, but I don’t see where it’s a public safety issue if they’ve been late to work. > [@](#): > > Which their partner can do no wrong. How many cops do you know, personally that you can make such a concrete statement? > [@](#): > > And you know all this because you work in a museum and your hubby works in a prison, so you’re the absolute expert here and your word is gold. He works with the cops all the time. He goes on raids with them, helps with the investigatons and we socialize with them. I am not claiming to be an expert, but I am more familiar with police tactics than the average citizen. > [@](#): > > I can’t hear someone yelling from outside the house. I can hear a door being smashed in with a battering ram (I don’t think a kick will do it against the deadbolts). One of these days someone ought to set up a decible meter. If you can hear splintering wood and pounding, I’m pretty sure you’d be able to hear six men yelling at the top of their lungs unless your house is as large as Bill Gates’. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/243 "2006-11-25T16:28:35Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Lissa, bullshit. I think Balko has a pretty good take on this: > **[The Agitator](http://www.theagitator.com)** His point is that, apparently, no matter what happens, the police are never to blame for the tactics, and all the mistakes are the fault of the person on the other side of the door. Simply put, that’s a ridiculous standard. [/quote] Look, mistakes will happen, but the chances of a mistake happening are greater if the person doesn’t comply with the police commands. For example, if the person holding the cup, or the remote or the T-shirt hem didn’t put their hands up when the police commanded them to, the cops are going to get worried that the item they’re holding is a weapon. And yes, at that point, you _are_ to blame for not complying with their commands. > [@](#): > > Again, I find the idea that I could intelligibly hear even someone shouting “POLICE” at the top of their lungs patently ridiculous: a loudspeaker might not even cut it, especially if I was asleep and it was what woke me to the sound of crashing noises. I really don’t believe that the noise from splintering wood is louder than six men shouting at the top of their lungs. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/244 "2006-11-25T16:39:48Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] One story about bad cops proves that they’re all bad? [/quote] No, but a horde of such stories proves that you are either naive, or trying to spin BS. There is no reason to assume that police officers are any different than most other normal human beings. Some are bad, many will shade the truth towards their profession’s benefit, etc. > [@](#): > > What looks like brutality to the Average Joe is often ordinary police tactics. Just because it \*looks \*brutal to the untrained eye doesn’t mean the cops did anything wrong. Because, of course, the people with the authority to legally beat and kill you always know best. > [@](#): > > One of these days someone ought to set up a decible meter. If you can hear splintering wood and pounding, I’m pretty sure you’d be able to hear six men yelling at the top of their lungs unless your house is as large as Bill Gates’. Look, you are going to need to give up this line of argument sooner or later, because it’s just ridiculous. I might well hear something, but I wouldn’t be able to make out what was being said, and there are lots of different plausible scenarios in which a person would not hear such a warning. The difference is that splintering wood and pounding would be sounds that translate directly to the inside of the house (in part because they would be happening inside the house). Are you really going to continue to implausibly argue otherwise, or are we done here? The story on this very case has seemingly enough wiggle room to have the warning being either before or during the breakdown. Which was it? > [@](#): > > For example, if the person holding the cup, or the remote or the T-shirt hem didn’t put their hands up when the police commanded them to, the cops are going to get worried that the item they’re holding is a weapon. And yes, at that point, you are to blame for not complying with their commands. This is exactly Balko’s point. It doesn’t matter if you are innocent and the cops incompetent. If YOU make the slightest mistake, being a confused person who just woke up to all sorts of crazy noise and lights and guns, don’t do exactly the right thing, your life is forfeit. Everything is on you. And, of course, it goes without saying that your family dog must be ritually executed as a matter of entry proceedure. All of this, of course, only applies if you are poor and DO live in a Bill Gates style mansion. White collar criminals almost never face this sort of treatment. A lot of them get polite calls to their lawyers asking them to appear, and when they are served warrants, there is plenty of knocking. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/245 "2006-11-25T16:39:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] The vast majority of times that this happens, no one is hurt. The reason why deaths get so much publicity is because they’re comparitively rare occurances during a raid. That doesn’t make them any less regretable, of course, but you don’t scrap a tacttic because something goes wrong a small percentage of the time. If they hadn’t announced themselves ahead of time and given her a chance to arm herself, this would probably be a MPSIMS thread in which we were all laughing about a 92 year old granny busted for running a drug house. [/quote] Or they could have gone the whole other route. Calmly surround the house and then call them on the phone. No excitement, nobody gets shot. Maybe grandma would have flushed the dope but so what? As I and several other have mentioned above, the police are more and more seen as an enemy and effectively an occupying force. It would seem to pay them to try and de-escalate things rather than do the paramilitary thing. > [@](#): > > You’ll get no argument from me. I think the drug war is stupid and costs way to much in lives and funds. However, it is currently the law of the land and cops are duty-bound to enforce it, and to do so, they’re going to use the techniques which have shown themselves to be the best. Yes, people are going to die, but I don’t blame the police for that. In this particular case, I blame the old woman. Sure, I admit it’s the law of the land and the cops have no choice in the matter. Nevertheless, the cops are the ones that are seen as evil opressors and are hated accordingly. This thread is a good example. The old lady gets the bulk of the sympathy and the cops that were shot get little or none. > [@](#): > > Again, anyone who shoots without being sure of their target is an idiot. In this case, the police were all clearly marked as such in big letters on the front of their clothing. They had announced themselves before they kicked in the door (which, truthfully, is probably what got them shot-- it gave her time to grab for the gun.) I’m not sure. As I mentioned above, the police could have tried to do this another way. In any event, they kicked-in someone’s door and damn near got killed for it. If I put myself in that old lady’s shoes, I might have done the same. It depends on what kind of assumptions you make. Did the old lady know they were police before they kicked-in her door? Did she understand? Maybe she was in fact just some cop-hating old lady and you’re point is exactly right. We’ll never know now. > [@](#): > > As I said, I’m no fan of the War on Drugs, but while it’s still the law, I"m not going to blame the police for enforcing it. I concede the point. I agree with it as well. > [@](#): > > Again, in most cases, the tecnique works like a charm. They take all the occupants by surprise and subdue them immediately. It’s when the criminals have warning (like this old lady) when things can go bad-- they can grab a weapon, destory evidence, take a hostage, escape or even kill themselves. It’s _more_ dangerous to give them time to think about it. It may work like a charm in most cases. On the other hand, it feeds the impression that the police are the enemy. Armed men sneaking around wearing ninja suits do not automatically engender trust, quite the opposite. > [@](#): > > It’s not the police’s fault that granny decided to go out with guns blazing. If anything, the mistake they made was announcing themselves ahead of time when they had a no-knock warrant and could have just burst in, taking her by surprise. _She_ is the one who decided to try to kill people without being sure of who they were. (Or, maybe she _did_ know and she decided to try to kill the cops.) We differ on this. Given what we know, I think the police could have handled this very differently. I’ll admit to using hindsight on this and it probably isn’t fair to the police to second-guess them after the fact. Nevertheless, if someone gets a call from the police, looks outside their window and sees overwhelming force, they aren’t likely to put up much of a fight. We’re assuming sanity here. A crazy is just that. \ > [@](#): > > _raises hand_ > > I do. I do not believe that the cops will tamper with the evidence. Given the huge amount of media attention and all of the watchdog groups which are focused on this event, I doubt if they could even if they wanted to. > > Right now, those cops are under a microscope. The IAD is breathing down their necks, their service records are being scrutinized and the old woman’s family probably has a team of lawyers watching every single step of the investigation. Politicians are calling the department making demands and the chief is probably living on Excedrine and coffee. > > The “blue wall” does exist, but it’s not what most people think that it is. It exists to cover for your partner if he’s late for work or if he has a drinking problem or if he forgot to turn in a form on time. They back one another up when they know that their partner didn’t do anything wrong and they try to present a united front. > > However, cops don’t want to work with someone who’s dangerous. They won’t stick their necks out for someone who is doing things that are wrong because it puts them in danger, both physically and legally. FWIW, I agree with you on this. Cops are not going to start dumping dope in people’s houses to cover their mistakes. I’ve never heard or seen anything like that. FYI, my father and grandfather were cops for most of their working lives. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/246 "2006-11-25T16:42:12Z")
Sorry, “do not live in” instead of DO. Lissa, you are a human being who lives on the planet earth, right? You really can’t see how a person who just awoke naked to a bunch of screaming guys telling them to put their hands up might confusedly try to cover up their genitals first before doing so, almost as if by habit, not realizing that police don’t allow time for basic modesty? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/247 "2006-11-25T16:46:35Z")
Right, I mean, a large number of corrupt police officers and a corrupt DA would never be involved in framing a large number of black people with narcotics. That’s never happened in our country in our history right? No officers have ever been sent to jail for that, right? We should NEVER worry about such things being a possibility, because they are simply implausible and maybe even impossible… ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/248 "2006-11-25T16:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > **Lissa** said: > What looks like brutality to the Average Joe is often ordinary police tactics. What it says to me is that brutality _is_ an ordinary police tactic. > [@](#): > > Just because someone is an alcoholic doesn’t mean they’re unable to do their jobs properly. If they’re drinking on the job, that’s a problem, but I don’t see where it’s a public safety issue if they’ve been late to work. Really? So a delayed response because the drunk of a cop couldn’t get his ass to work on time and sober isn’t going to matter if it means they don’t get to your house before the burglar kills you? > [@](#): > > How many cops do you know, personally that you can make such a concrete statement? I have had enough experience with cops to know that trusting them is a mistake I’m not willing to make again. > [@](#): > > He works with the cops all the time. He goes on raids with them, helps with the investigatons and we socialize with them. I am not claiming to be an expert, but I am more familiar with police tactics than the average citizen. Have **you** ever been on one of these raids? Do **you** have any police training? Have **you** ever interacted with them in the course of their work, or is it all just stories from hubby the deputy warden (which sounds rather to me like the way Wal-Mart calls all the cashiers ‘associates’) and the backyard barbecues where you decided that they are all wonderful guys? My distrust of cops and immediate skepticism at their claims comes from dealing with on-duty cops. Not stories told to me at picnics. > [@](#): > > One of these days someone ought to set up a decible meter. If you can hear splintering wood and pounding, I’m pretty sure you’d be able to hear six men yelling at the top of their lungs unless your house is as large as Bill Gates’. You can ‘pretty sure’ all you want. It’s not the case. I can’t hear someone on the other side of the steel door yelling. I can hear someone taking a 7’ tall steel door off the hinges and shoving it into the house. I **might** not hear it if they came through the garage, but then they have another door that size to contend with to get from the garage into the house. > [@](#): > > I really don’t believe that the noise from splintering wood is louder than six men shouting at the top of their lungs. Noises inside the house are a hell of a lot easier to hear than noises outside the house. > [@](#): > > And yes, at that point, you are to blame for not complying with their commands. No matter what those commands are, no matter what the cops do, no matter how they violate your rights, beat the hell out of you, threaten you, harm you, sodomize you with a broomstick, you can’t do a damn thing to defend yourself. You **have to comply**. Blind compliance no matter how bad the cops fuck up is what’s expected in your world. A citizen has no right to defend him or herself against a cop. Not in my world. If they’re gonna commit urban warfare, which is what these paramilitary cops who believe themselves to be other than civilians are doing, they’re going to come up against people who defend themselves. I am one of those people. They have no legitimate reason to tear my door down and force their way in. None. And will be treated like any other intruder if they do. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/249 "2006-11-25T16:53:03Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Not in my world. If they’re gonna commit urban warfare, which is what these paramilitary cops who believe themselves to be other than civilians are doing, they’re going to come up against people who defend themselves. I am one of those people. They have no legitimate reason to tear my door down and force their way in. None. And will be treated like any other intruder if they do. [/QUOTE] And then you will be dead. Congrats. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/250 "2006-11-25T16:56:40Z")
Maybe I will, and maybe I won’t. But I will defend myself and my home from any intruder. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/251 "2006-11-25T17:07:02Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Maybe I will, and maybe I won’t. But I will defend myself and my home from any intruder. [/QUOTE] You start shooting at police officers as they perform their duty there is no maybe. Glad you are so happy about it. I try to chime in and defend Americans when some Europeans mention how crazy and paranoid Americans with regards to their guns. Seems I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/252 "2006-11-25T17:13:30Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] No, but a horde of such stories proves that you are either naive, or trying to spin BS. There is no reason to assume that police officers are any different than most other normal human beings. Some are bad, many will shade the truth towards their profession’s benefit, etc. [/quote] For every story of something going wrong, there are probably twenty of everything going according to plan. It’s not national news when a raid is succesful, and so most people never hear about them. Most of the raids my husband had been on haven’t even been covered in our local paper. > [@](#): > > Because, of course, the people with the authority to legally beat and kill you always know best. Police don’t just make up procedure as they go along. Procedure is formulated by people who have studied these sorts of situations and the methods are almost always challenged in a court of law. So, blame the courts who have said that no-knock warrants are constitutional. > [@](#): > > Look, you are going to need to give up this line of argument sooner or later, because it’s just ridiculous. I might well hear something, but I wouldn’t be able to make out what was being said, and there are lots of different plausible scenarios in which a person would not hear such a warning. The difference is that splintering wood and pounding would be sounds that translate directly to the inside of the house (in part because they would be happening inside the house). Are you really going to continue to implausibly argue otherwise, or are we done here? Okay,\* even\* if you didn’t hear the shouts as the door was being broken down, you’d sure as hell hear them when they entered the room you were in. > [@](#): > > The story on this very case has seemingly enough wiggle room to have the warning being either before or during the breakdown. Which was it? CNN says that they announced themselves before they went to work on the door. > [@](#): > > This is exactly Balko’s point. It doesn’t matter if you are innocent and the cops incompetent. If YOU make the slightest mistake, being a confused person who just woke up to all sorts of crazy noise and lights and guns, don’t do exactly the right thing, your life is forfeit. Everything is on you. Dude, what are the cops supposed to do? Wait until one of them is shot before reacting? They work with very dangerous people and so they have to go off the assumption that \*everyone \*is potentially violent. They don’t know, looking at you, if you’re actually an innocent little college kid or a drug-crazed thug. For their own safety, they have to assume that everyone is dangerous. > [@](#): > > And, of course, it goes without saying that your family dog must be ritually executed as a matter of entry proceedure. It’s one of my biggest worries about this issue, actually. My eldest dog is very protective. I know if the cops ever raided my home, they would shoot her. I can’t blame them, though, even though it would break my heart. They don’t have to stand there and be bitten. > [@](#): > > All of this, of course, only applies if you are poor and DO live in a Bill Gates style mansion. White collar criminals almost never face this sort of treatment. A lot of them get polite calls to their lawyers asking them to appear, and when they are served warrants, there is plenty of knocking. A good portion of the homes my husband went to raid were owned by white middle-class people. White collar crime is a different animal. People who have cooked the books at a company aren’t generally armed to the teeth. The drug trade is known for violent acts-- accounting fraud is not. > [@catsix](#): > > What it says to me is that brutality is an ordinary police tactic. Deinfe “brutality” first, and then we’ll discuss it. > [@](#): > > Really? So a delayed response because the drunk of a cop couldn’t get his ass to work on time and sober isn’t going to matter if it means they don’t get to your house before the burglar kills you? Provide an instance of this happening, and then we’ll talk. Considering that they’re probably not the only officers capable of responding, it doesn’t really compute. > [@](#): > > I have had enough experience with cops to know that trusting them is a mistake I’m not willing to make again. So, let me get this straight. Your brief, limited interraction is valid evidence that cops are untrustworthy, but my extended more expansive interractions with them is not evidence to the contrary? > [@](#): > > Have you ever been on one of these raids? Do you have any police training? Have you ever interacted with them in the course of their work, or is it all just stories from hubby the deputy warden (which sounds rather to me like the way Wal-Mart calls all the cashiers ‘associates’) and the backyard barbecues where you decided that they are all wonderful guys? My distrust of cops and immediate skepticism at their claims comes from dealing with on-duty cops. Not stories told to me at picnics. He is second in command of the prison, so, no, it’s not a Wal-Mart style “courtesy title.” No, I have never personally been on one of the raids, but I have no reason to doubt what my hubby tells me. I know him to be an honest man who is deeply concerned with civil and human rights. Secondly, “stories at picnics” do have some value. An asshole generally wants everyone to _know_ that they’re an asshole. Assholes tell “funny” stories about the people they screw over and the like. When they’re relaxed and comfortable in their enviornment (and especially if they’ve been drinking), their true personality comes out. I’ve been around cops enough to get to know them very well. I know intimate details of their marriages and personell conflicts with other officers. In short, if they were brutal assholes, I’d know it. Do they fuck up on occasion and do something incorrectly? Yes. Of course. They’re human. But they’re not eager to hurt people or to violate people’s rights. Hell, the headaches and paperwork involved with an incident like that alone is enough to make someone want to do things by the book. So, either I’m lying, or somehow I ended up in a city which has the only decent police force in the world. > [@](#): > > You can ‘pretty sure’ all you want. It’s not the case. I can’t hear someone on the other side of the steel door yelling. I can hear someone taking a 7’ tall steel door off the hinges and shoving it into the house. I might not hear it if they came through the garage, but then they have another door that size to contend with to get from the garage into the house. As I said, if you didn’t hear them outside, you’d sure as hell hear them after they came through the door. > [@](#): > > No matter what those commands are, no matter what the cops do, no matter how they violate your rights, beat the hell out of you, threaten you, harm you, sodomize you with a broomstick, you can’t do a damn thing to defend yourself. You have to comply. Blind compliance no matter how bad the cops fuck up is what’s expected in your world. A citizen has no right to defend him or herself against a cop. Oh, for crying out loud. It’s not like they’re commanding you to have sex with your brother. They’re commanding you to stand still and put your hands up. And no, you don’t have a right to defend yourself violently against the police. If you feel your rights have been violated, you have the means of redress through the court system just like every citizen. [quote] Not in my world. If they’re gonna commit urban warfare, which is what these paramilitary cops who believe themselves to be other than civilians are doing, they’re going to come up against people who defend themselves. I am one of those people. They have no legitimate reason to tear my door down and force their way in. None. And will be treated like any other intruder if they do. [quote] Urban warfare . . . \*sheesh! \*If that were truly the case, they’d bomb the house from the air or throw in grenades before they entered, guns blazing. Well, if you want to try to “defend yourself” have fun getting your head blown off. If you don’t die, you’ll end up in prison, so you’d probably better learn hand-to-hand self defense as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/253 "2006-11-25T17:19:01Z")
[QUOTE=Testy] Or they could have gone the whole other route. Calmly surround the house and then call them on the phone. No excitement, nobody gets shot. Maybe grandma would have flushed the dope but so what? As I and several other have mentioned above, the police are more and more seen as an enemy and effectively an occupying force. It would seem to pay them to try and de-escalate things rather than do the paramilitary thing.[/quoe] And what if there was a child in the house and they decided to use the kid as a human shield or put a gun to their head as a hostage? What if they decided to gather all the guns they had and take out as many cops as they could before being shot down themselves? How many criminals do you think would surrender “nicely?” How long do the cops have to wait before entering the house? What about hostage situations, or setting up booby-traps or any of the other hundred thousand things which could happen if a violent criminal had warning? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/254 "2006-11-25T17:19:10Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] It’s one of my biggest worries about this issue, actually. My eldest dog is very protective. I know if the cops ever raided my home, they would shoot her. I can’t blame them, though, even though it would break my heart. They don’t have to stand there and be bitten. [/QUOTE] I’ll be more torn up about the people killed, if it’s all the same to you. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/255 "2006-11-25T17:33:44Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] One of these days someone ought to set up a decible meter. If you can hear splintering wood and pounding, I’m pretty sure you’d be able to hear six men yelling at the top of their lungs unless your house is as large as Bill Gates’. [/QUOTE] Two points. A) Yelling outside is insulated by the walls of the house. Crashing a door down, though, generates sound that’s not seperated by a barrier - it’s part of the wall itself that’s the source of the noise, and may be a lot easier to hear than yelling. B) If you’re asleep, and while this raid was carried out at 7pm, many are carried out in the middle of the night, the sound of the shouting may wake you, but, in a half-asleep state, be unintelligible, but now that you’re awake, the sound of the door coming crashing down is much more clear. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/256 "2006-11-25T17:34:10Z")
[QUOTE=wring] I’ll be more torn up about the people killed, if it’s all the same to you. [/QUOTE] I didn’t read about anyone being killed in her example. Just her with her hands up and a dead dog. What were you reading? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/257 "2006-11-25T17:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **Lissa** said: > Provide an instance of this happening, and then we’ll talk. Considering that they’re probably not the only officers capable of responding, it doesn’t really compute. You’re the one who said that the blue wall means drunks are covered for by their fellow cops. > [@](#): > > So, let me get this straight. Your brief, limited interraction is valid evidence that cops are untrustworthy, but my extended more expansive interractions with them is not evidence to the contrary? Trusting a cop has never done anything good for me, ever. > [@](#): > > No, I have never personally been on one of the raids, but I have no reason to doubt what my hubby tells me. I know him to be an honest man who is deeply concerned with civil and human rights. I bet you think so. Dennis Rader’s wife thought he was a swell guy too. > [@](#): > > I’ve been around cops enough to get to know them very well. I know intimate details of their marriages and personell conflicts with other officers. In short, if they were brutal assholes, I’d know it. Are you sure about that? It’s usually the friends and family on TV after the incident harping that they never would’ve guessed he was capable of whatever violent thing he did… > [@](#): > > So, either I’m lying, or somehow I ended up in a city which has the only decent police force in the world. I think you’re excruciatingly naive, and also guilty of extreme idiocy if you think there’s nothing wrong with cops covering for a cop who’s a drunk. > [@](#): > > Oh, for crying out loud. It’s not like they’re commanding you to have sex with your brother. They’re commanding you to stand still and put your hands up. And no, you don’t have a right to defend yourself violently against the police. If you feel your rights have been violated, you have the means of redress through the court system just like every citizen. That’s not good enough. That doesn’t keep me safe from them. > [@](#): > > Urban warfare . . . sheesh! If that were truly the case, they’d bomb the house from the air or throw in grenades before they entered, guns blazing. They insist on dressing in military BDUs, wearing night-vision goggles, and conducting raids in military fashion. They insist on referring to themselves as something other than civilian. They made it them versus us, and now they cry that people see them as the enemy. Their desire for military toys, military attire, and their use of military tactics is obvious. So are the big, high publicity raids right before budget reviews and the ‘war on drugs’. The **war** on drugs. In which the cops dress like the military, equip themselves like the military, and strike like the military. You tell me why I shouldn’t see it as urban warfare? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/258 "2006-11-25T17:39:32Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] You start shooting at police officers as they perform their duty there is no maybe. Glad you are so happy about it. I try to chime in and defend Americans when some Europeans mention how crazy and paranoid Americans with regards to their guns. Seems I was wrong. [/QUOTE] Why does this have to be a gun issue? If Americans are paranoid that their police are militarizing, adopting an “us” vs “them” attitude where “them” is the citizenry rather than criminals, and routinely attack any minor problem with overwhelming force, what the hell does that have to do with gun rights? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/259 "2006-11-25T17:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] I didn’t read about anyone being killed in her example. Just her with her hands up and a dead dog. What were you reading? [/QUOTE] the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/260 "2006-11-25T17:41:46Z")
[QUOTE=wring] the thread. [/QUOTE] Then don’t reply to a specific quote when it didn’t have anything to do with what you are saying. In fact you either didn’t understand what was written or chose not to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392.md?page=14)