# My 90 year old neighbor is shot down by the po-pos **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392 "2006-11-22T05:07:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/61 "2006-11-22T15:44:36Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Then it is a good thing they shot her before she killed any police officers. **The police did everything right.** Being 92 does not give you the right to shoot cops any more than if she were a nineteen year old gang banger. Sorry, Grandma, but if you shoot at a cop who is doing his job, then you can kiss your wrinkly ass good-bye. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. I think there’s some dispute over whether the police “did everything right”, given the circumstances: - Askia’s already mentioned that gunshots are not unusual in the neighborhood in question, which implies a high crime rate. - Everything I’ve seen in the news indicates these officers were in plainclothes and had firearms at the ready. - There was the extra datum that apparently the woman was worried about a rape/murder of another elderly woman in a nearby area. All of those things add together to make what I’d see as a justifiably worrying situation for the woman, and I think that until there is some sort of clear report that the cops clearly identified as cops, she was more than justified in opening fire on what, to any reasonable person, could easily be three home intruders. I’m not sure if you’ve ever weighed in on any of the gun control debates–do you think a person is justified in shooting an armed home intruder? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/62 "2006-11-22T15:59:00Z")
It sounds to me like Yet Another Very Good Reason to deep-six the war on drugs. It has apparently become more important to get to the drugs and make the bust before the evidence can be disposed of than to avoid endangering life (both guilty and innocent, as it turns out). Close it down, quit busting into folks’ homes, quit seizing folks’ assets, quit with the overcrowded jails and prisons populated with drug-related crime arrestees & convicts, and just legalize the damn stuff. All of it. Dump 1/2 the money we’re blowing on the War on Drugs into rehap, mop-up, and related ugly fallout from legal drug distribution & use and we’re still way ahead of the game. This kind of shit brings out the Inner Republican in me. There’s just no sufficiently good reason to break into a person’s home without lots of due process, caution, and notice. Forced entry, when necessary, should be done with a great deal of formality, bullhorns explaining that this is about to occur, a judge specifically okaying the break-in, etc. I don’t care what the heck is going on behind those doors (conniving terrorists, paedophile child slave trade, distribution of loot after bank robbery, whatever), I’d rather 95% of them got away with it than have public servants smashing down decent folks’ doors and yelling at them and shooting holes in them with so little provocation. (And no, getting shot at doesn’t count as provocation if you haven’t done due diligence to establish that you are in fact the police. Sounds like they were more worried about the residents flushing evidence down the commode than they were about establishing initial dialogue) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/63 "2006-11-22T15:59:13Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Well, the way I see it, the more aggressive cops get as to barging into places, the more they’re going to get shot. I fail to see this as a bad thing. Truthfully, I don’t care if suspects get to dump single baggies, which is about all you could flush. I think that a certain amount of respect for the citizen is needed among the police, which is generally less and less apparent, these days. If it takes making the cops afraid of the citizens to make them back off… then it’s fine by me. Now, I respect the bravery of policemen. I also hate the arrogance certain ones display. I hate the erosion of rights and liberties, and I hate how, even with the erosion of liberties, police still go above and beyond that. [/QUOTE] You fail to see it as a bad thing? Then you are an idiot. If it becomes normal for citizens to take shots at cops when executing a valid warrant then it would cause things to escalate, rather than cause the police to have “respect for the citizen”. No knock warrants are mostly for officer safety rather than to keep baggies from being flushed. In fact if this had been a no-knock then probably no one would have been shot. The old lady seemed to be going for her gun instead of answering when they knocked on the door. If she hadn’t been warned then she probably would not have had time to shoot first. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/64 "2006-11-22T16:13:22Z")
It’s called a “Jump to Conclusions Mat,” because you jump… … … to conclusions! “That is the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard.” ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/65 "2006-11-22T16:15:53Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] Plainclothes does not equal civilian clothes. I don’t know for sure what happened here but usually when executing a warrant plainclothes officers wear vests with “Police” or “Atlanta PD” on them. Easily recognized as police officers. This is as much to identify themselves to other officers as it is to be identified by others. The article Shodan quotes says they were shot as they approached the house, not after they broke in the door. This would be easiler proven by the physical evidence. That is not defending your home. That is attempted murder. I of course do not know this lady. But don’t equate age with innocence. I was talking to an old blind guy who was arguing with his wife. At first it seemed funny that these 80 year olds were still bickering at their age. Then the guy mentioned how he had been in prison for killing someone. [/QUOTE] Other accounts say that the officers knocked and announced themselves. You would have to have really long arms to be able to knock on the door while you are still approaching the house. We need to wait for the real story to come out. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/66 "2006-11-22T16:18:52Z")
I’m with the people saying we just have too little information to make a statement one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/67 "2006-11-22T16:21:17Z")
Can warrants be served at any time in the US? IIRC here you can only serve warrants during daytime, I think (6 to 6). Unless a crime is being commited at that very momment and reported to the police people are undisturbed at home during hours of sleep. Maybe this is not a good idea, but I can’t see why not. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/68 "2006-11-22T16:23:23Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] Other accounts say that the officers knocked and announced themselves. You would have to have really long arms to be able to knock on the door while you are still approaching the house. We need to wait for the real story to come out. [/QUOTE] Now I saw that too. The police spokeman said they knocked, got no answer and went in. This part will be pretty easy to verify. He was very clear that they had the correct house. It takes a lot more than one anonymous tip to get a warrant, judges don’t want to be caught in the middle of something like this either. I’m interested to see what the warrant said and why they went there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/69 "2006-11-22T16:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] Can warrants be served at any time in the US? IIRC here you can only serve warrants during daytime, I think (6 to 6). Unless a crime is being commited at that very momment and reported to the police people are undisturbed at home during hours of sleep. Maybe this is not a good idea, but I can’t see why not. [/QUOTE] I am speaking in generalities not for this case. Because if you are going after violent criminals it is better to surprise them when they are sleeping, rather than when they are up and armed. There is no over all rule as to the time of day. Each warrant has it’s own rules laid out by the judge that signs it. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/70 "2006-11-22T16:31:51Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] And apparently at least one was wearing a bullet-proof vest. If she is sharp enough to shoot three people, she should be sharp enough to understand the phrase “POLICE! WE HAVE A SEARCH WARRANT! OPEN THE DOOR!” [/QUOTE] And why the hell do they even need to be doing this? If you know that it’s a 92 year old woman inside, you don’t need to bust the door down. If, as I suspect, they didn’t know it was just a 92-year old in there, then they were going in with bad or inadequate information – IOW, they fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/71 "2006-11-22T16:33:01Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] This kind of shit brings out the Inner Republican in me. [/QUOTE] You misspelled Libertarian. Pubs love the drug war, as do dems. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/72 "2006-11-22T16:34:29Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] Plainclothes does not equal civilian clothes. I don’t know for sure what happened here but usually when executing a warrant plainclothes officers wear vests with “Police” or “Atlanta PD” on them. Easily recognized as police officers. This is as much to identify themselves to other officers as it is to be identified by others. [/quote] When my husband goes along on raids, he wears a white bullet-proof vest over his civilian clothes. He has a badge on a chain that he wears around his neck, plainly visible against the white vest because of the black leather backing behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/73 "2006-11-22T16:37:16Z")
So, the picture I’m getting is that it even if the cops did everything right, I still would have a hard time blaming granny. Put yourself in her place at any age, living in a scary neighborhood, asleep in the middle of the night. Through probably two closed doors (front & bedroom), you are awakened by somebody yelling something you probably can’t hear well enough to understand in a loud threatening voice, followed by the sound of your door being smashed in. You grab your handy gun and point it at the bedroom door, which flies open and three large men with guns dressed entirely in black burst in. You really think you wouldn’t fire? Seriously, who wakes up with all their faculties immediately in place during an adrenaline-filled time like that? Hell, I’m not half her age and I doubt I would have processed the situation in time to make a very fine judgement call. Seriously, if you are asleep and someone starts yelling something two rooms away, are you going to immediately understand what they say? That’s the part that gets me. Of course, I’m sure someone will be along in a moment to say this inability to immediately wake and correctly analyze the situation would make me someone who should not have a gun, to which I’d answer, lets try the experiment on some police officers and find out how many of them could pass the 91-year-old granny with a gun in the middle of the night test. I’m guessing most of them would get their own asses shot off if placed in her situation. I’m very sorry for her family. I’m sorry anyone got hurt. I am in total agreement with **AHunter3** about the absurdity of the war on drugs and how it helps create these lose-lose situations. And I hope if I’m ever in her position (allone, terrified, awakened in the middle of the night by unknown intruders dressed in black pointing guns at me) I do as well as she did. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/74 "2006-11-22T16:41:46Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] When my husband goes along on raids, he wears a white bullet-proof vest over his civilian clothes. He has a badge on a chain that he wears around his neck, plainly visible against the white vest because of the black leather backing behind it. [/QUOTE] And is it identifiable as a police badge from the distance that granny would have been? Why is it such a burden for police to wear a police uniform? Don’t they want to be easily identifiable as police, from a distance? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/75 "2006-11-22T16:46:49Z")
[QUOTE=Mrs. Cake] So, the picture I’m getting is that it even if the cops did everything right, I still would have a hard time blaming granny. Put yourself in her place at any age, living in a scary neighborhood, asleep in the middle of the night. Through probably two closed doors (front & bedroom), you are awakened by somebody yelling something you probably can’t hear well enough to understand in a loud threatening voice, followed by the sound of your door being smashed in. You grab your handy gun and point it at the bedroom door, which flies open and three large men with guns dressed entirely in black burst in. You really think you wouldn’t fire? Seriously, who wakes up with all their faculties immediately in place during an adrenaline-filled time like that? Hell, I’m not half her age and I doubt I would have processed the situation in time to make a very fine judgement call. Seriously, if you are asleep and someone starts yelling something two rooms away, are you going to immediately understand what they say? That’s the part that gets me. Of course, I’m sure someone will be along in a moment to say this inability to immediately wake and correctly analyze the situation would make me someone who should not have a gun, to which I’d answer, lets try the experiment on some police officers and find out how many of them could pass the 91-year-old granny with a gun in the middle of the night test. I’m guessing most of them would get their own asses shot off if placed in her situation. I’m very sorry for her family. I’m sorry anyone got hurt. I am in total agreement with **AHunter3** about the absurdity of the war on drugs and how it helps create these lose-lose situations. And I hope if I’m ever in her position (allone, terrified, awakened in the middle of the night by unknown intruders dressed in black pointing guns at me) I do as well as she did. [/QUOTE] I’m game if I don’t pass the test you can take away my guns. In the mean time I guess you shouldn’t have any. A hard of hearing half blind granny shouldn’t either. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/76 "2006-11-22T16:46:49Z")
[QUOTE=lokij] This is bullshit, that woman had every right to defend her home and was killed for it. There aren’t words to express how angry this makes me. I don’t care if the home was filled to the fucking rafters with crystal meth and coke, you surround the place, knock on the door FIRST.. wait for an appropriate amount of time for an answer and only then as a final option resort to forcible entry. . [/QUOTE] They did knock and announce. They had a valid warrent. “Plainclothes” does not mean the Police weren’t clearly identifyable as cops- many Plainclothes police put on a “raid vest” as they go in. Why is everyone assuming that this woman could not be a drug dealer or at least a knowing drug warehouser just because of her age and the self-serving statements made by her relatives? Note that the news story is still so fresh we know little of what really happened and we don’t know the Police dep’t side. We basicly know very little. Now, let us take the woman age out of it- and assume the House was really being used for drug deals. “Drug dealer shots 3 cops during raid, is killed”- who would be outraged? Why do we assume her age makes her innocent? Clearly, she was “able”- she shot 3 cops. I thinks we have to know a lot more before we condemn the cops here. Of course, it _could_ be a giant fuck up and some cops will have to go to jail, too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/77 "2006-11-22T16:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] And is it identifiable as a police badge from the distance that granny would have been? Why is it such a burden for police to wear a police uniform? Don’t they want to be easily identifiable as police, from a distance? [/QUOTE] You drive up to the drug house, you get out of the police car- by the time you have gotten ready to knock on the door, the look out has alerted everyone- the drugs are flushed, the papers are burnt, and the dealers have either run or set up an ambush. Dead cops. Good idea. :rolleyes: Most cops wear a 'raid vest" with says “POLICE” in large white letters, it can be put on in seconds. Some have a tag you pull down, which can be done in even less time. I have a “raid” windbreaker myself, hardly ever used. Large white letters on the back and front. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/78 "2006-11-22T17:10:53Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] If she is sharp enough to shoot three people, she should be sharp enough to understand the phrase “POLICE! WE HAVE A SEARCH WARRANT! OPEN THE DOOR!” [/QUOTE] because only cops are allowed to say those words. you stupid fuck. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/79 "2006-11-22T17:18:20Z")
…and of course criminals trying to gain illegal access, perhaps for a gang hit would never ever think of saying those words would they ? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392/80 "2006-11-22T17:19:47Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] They did knock and announce. They had a valid warrent. “Plainclothes” does not mean the Police weren’t clearly identifyable as cops- many Plainclothes police put on a “raid vest” as they go in. Why is everyone assuming that this woman could not be a drug dealer or at least a knowing drug warehouser just because of her age and the self-serving statements made by her relatives? Note that the news story is still so fresh we know little of what really happened and we don’t know the Police dep’t side. We basicly know very little. Now, let us take the woman age out of it- and assume the House was really being used for drug deals. “Drug dealer shots 3 cops during raid, is killed”- who would be outraged? Why do we assume her age makes her innocent? Clearly, she was “able”- she shot 3 cops. I thinks we have to know a lot more before we condemn the cops here. Of course, it _could_ be a giant fuck up and some cops will have to go to jail, too. [/QUOTE] that’s why we’ve heard so much about all the drugs they’ve seized? This scares the shit out of me. I live in a semi-rough neighborhood and this could have been me, or my wife. Fuck this mickey mouse bullshit. If you can’t gain entry in time to stop the drugs from getting flushed then get a new strategy. This shit stinks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-90-year-old-neighbor-is-shot-down-by-the-po-pos/381392.md?page=5)