Because it is not routine. If you think it is then you are being paranoid. If you think that you need to arm yourself because you think the police are after you, you are either a criminal or paranoid.
Oh please. Calling it a “war” is just a political soundbite like the “war on poverty”. Sounds good in headlines and in political speeches. It’s not hope police think of it.
the quote indicated that her main concern was ‘what would happen to my dog in a police raid’, made in a thread where an elderly woman was killed. My comment was appropriate. sorry you have trouble following.
What? “A drug deal might’ve been made on this property” isn’t routine? It’s not as if anyone were in danger, or there was some time-critical aspect to all this. It’s drug enforcement. No one needs to die over that.
If this was a hostage situation, or something, then this approach might be more understandable.
Or did you mean that shooting at police officers is not routine?
I can’t speak for everyone’s motivations, but I’m not sure anyone here was advocating shooting police that you knew were police. A large part of the argument is that the tactics they choose to utilize maximize the ambiguity of the threat they present to people.
Again, I don’t think anyone has said anything to this extent. Only that when the police act like criminals (and to a person who’s done nothing wrong, busting down their door in the middle of the night is reasonably assumed to be likely to be the act of criminals), they bear some of the burden when people defend themselves against the threats presented.
We’re not talking about the police surrounding the place, and shouting “COME OUT, THIS IS THE POLICE” and deciding to go out with guns blazing. We’re talking about violent tactics designed to cause confusion that ramp up the intensity and threat level quite high.
And then they put on their BDUs and their Kevlar vests and their combat boots and their night vision goggles and their helmets and they grab their street-sweeper pistol-grip shotguns (which regular citizens can’t have because they are military weapons), and they kick in the door on a no-knock warrant.
They call it war. They execute it like a war. They dress like they’re at war. They walk like they’re at war. They differentiate themselves from ‘civilians’.
It’s time to call a duck a duck.
Sorry you have trouble following. She stated she wouldn’t be killed because she would comply but her dog probably would. No one dead except the dog. If you think every post and everything in this thread should be tied directly to the woman in the OP then you have 5 pages of posts to reply directly to. This threads been all over the place.
Are you normally this obtuse?
wring was responding to Lissa’s statement that “one of [her] biggest worries about this issue” (bolding mine) is that overprotective dogs might be killed during the execution of no-knock warrants. wring’s response was that she’s more concerned about the people who might be killed as a result of this issue.
well, I see xeno has come in and had no trouble seeing both the point I had, as well as your obtuseness.
One could say that same about radon exposure. Even at the highest levels, it’s still only 36 out of a thousand that will develop cancer. Whoop-de-doo.
If Ford built a truck that had a predictable 0.5% chance of violently exploding, and then sold it to your husband, unawares, and it blew him up, would you really be sitting here saying “for every truck that blew up, there were 1999 others that didn’t, so what right do I have to complain?”
Doesn’t fly. If what the government is doing is wrong, you don’t get special get out of jail free cards for participating.
Maybe. If there were any past that point. But again, it’s suddenly MY un-forewarned responsibility to hear and understand and comply fast enough for the satisfaction of some people that have just destroyed my property and rushed into my house all of a sudden.
According to one reading of a press conference in which the PR flack wavered on the issue.
And the glint of wristwatches are tech-9s.
But again, this doesn’t fly. It’s the paramilitary approach that is to blame for the confusion in the first place, not the person who just groggily woke up to a gun in their face.
Again, can’t you see how ridiculous that situation is. THEY CREATED THE SITUATION OF VIOLENCE, and then beg off any responsibility for the predictable sequences of events that follow from such a situation. It boggles the mind how you could defend the ritual execution of your own animal based on police officers choosing, without your knowledge, to go in guns ready to blaze down anything that doesn’t move the way they want, the instant they want.
And hey, gotta love that drug war: if they find any valuables that they can’t prove were linked to drug trafficking, but just can rationalize out some way to allege they were even if it doesn’t hold up in court, finders keepers!
Actually, you do 
Exactly my point. Anyone that can’t understand this simply isn’t living in the same reality as the rest of us. I’ve been standing in front of my front door TRYING to understand someone yelling on the other side of it and not being able to… but I CAN hear polite knocking on the door.
[QUOTE=Lissa]
Well, “what if” a lot of things. As far as the hostage thing goes, police deal with hostage situations all the time. They’re trained to do so and have specialist help available if they need it. My belief is that the police are usually successful in getting the hostages away and arresting the hostage taker. Not every time, but then nothing works 100% of the time. (Obviously including this paramilitary thing!)
As far as someone grabbing all the guns and threatening to go out in a blaze of glory, what of it? Assuming they aren’t holding hostages (which takes us back to scenario #1) then just stay out of range for a while.
I’ve actually watched a scene where a guy was holed-up in a house shooting at the police with a 12 gauge. They emptied several clips of .45 ammo from a Thompson submachine gun into the house about 7 feet off the floor. It must have been impressive from the inside. When they ran out of .45 ammo they told the guy to throw the damn gun out the window and them come out himself. He did so, immediately. There was a good deal of property damage but no one was hurt and the loon that shot at the cops was taken away and tried.
If the cops showed-up in overwhelming force (as they tend to do) I would expect the vast majority of criminals to come out and surrender “nicely” as you put it. As I mentioned before, we’re assuming sanity here. Crazies, as the name implies, do crazy things. I answered the hostage thing above.
As far as booby traps go, what kind of thing are you talking about? Explosives? This would probably have to be set up long before the police arrive so it’s a moot point. If someone had the desire to make booby traps they would have made them in advance. There are other things, of course. A shotgun on a tripwire will work well enough but again, this isn’t the kind of thing you decide to put together on the spur of the moment.
Lissa, my point is that if the police are, more and more frequently, being seen by the average citizen as an enemy. Part of it is the War on Drugs, which we are in agreement on but the use of military tactics against civilians exacerbates this perception. The more people that consider the police as being their enemy, the more often there is a need for this kind of paramilitary assault.
I really dislike this situation and want to find a fix for it. I do not like the thought that my friends and relatives in the US may, at any moment and without warning, be plunged into a life and death struggle with the police. That’s just wrong.
The police are the glue that holds society together and help preserve everyone’s rights and liberties. They should not be perceived as an occupying force nor should they be acting like one.
Regards
Testy
If the kind of tactic you advocate becomes the norm then we will be in the Pit talking about all of the mini-Wacos happening all over the country. Having a barricaded suspect is a hell of a lot more dangerous than going into a house. The only thing more dangerous that I can think of is giving my 99 year old grandmother a loaded weapon.
And you don’t get the whole routine thing. I meant for probably everyone in this thread it is not a routine part of their lives or even a once in a lifetime thing. Yes it happens. No it won’t happen to you unless you are a drug dealer, and probably not even then. I don’t know if anyone has a total ammount of mistaken raids a year (like going into 12a instead of 12b) but I bet it’s lower than the number of people struck by lightning every year. In fact I have never seen the wrong residence entered, but I have seen several people struck by lightning. Living in the NY area most of my life they have reported everytime something like this happens. Not very often.
You say no one has to die over a drug arrest. In my experience very few drug dealers are the peaceful hippy type. Most are violent felons who prey on their own neighborhoods. Tactics have been developed over many years and at the cost of many officer’s lives. Knocking and saying please doesn’t work too well.
I’ve never had a single good interaction with a cop ever so i can symphatize with those who don’t trust them but defending your home in a manner that will guarantee you end up dead is beyond retarded. You have a right to defend your home from invasion anyway you want Catsix but you seem to be more interested in going out like grandma here rather than concerned about your own safety.
I’m not quite sure what you’re referring to with this. I’ve said it seems like a good idea to time sirens and lights in accordance with a raid to remove ambiguity - but I doubt that’s what you’re referring to. I’m not trying to be deliberately obtuse - I’m just not sure what tactics you feel I’ve been advocating.
Not obtuse, douchebag. It was obvious that she was putting herself in the situation. If something like this happened to her in her house. Though she doesn’t think it would happen to her she is trying to put herself in the situation. Since she would not start shooting at the police she was most worried about having her dog shot rather than herself. That is the thing she is most worried about happening. Seemed pretty obvious to me. Guess you are just too obtuse to see it. Or you were being dishonest and just using it to make it seem like she was being callous towards the loss of life that wasn’t in her hypothetical scenerio.
I have no reason to expect the police to be crashing my door in or coming through the windows of my house. So why would they?
Why would they be coming into my house? There’s no reason for a cop, let alone many, to enter my house by force. There’s no reason for anyone who lives here to not use their keys. Everyone else rings the door bell. My friends give me advance notice of when they’re coming by, to make sure I’m home and not busy.
Therefore the only reason that I can reasonably see for someone breaking the door down or smashing a window to get in is criminal activity, potentially meaning my life is in danger. That’s the situation I am prepared to defend myself in.
Sorry lots of different people adding to the thread. You seem to be against no-knock warrants and the like. I’m not sure if you were one of those advocating allowing someone to barricade themselves in a house until they decide to give up. If you weren’t then I apologize for misrepresenting what you said. A very bad tactic. It will go wrong much more often than taking down a door.
your interpretation doesn’t seem to factor in the quote. especially the part xeno highlighted. and continuing to accuse me of dishonesty is jerkish behavior.
and ‘douchebag’? I haven’t heard that one since my son entered high school.
Loach
So, what’s wrong with simply keeping someone where they are and out of trouble until they decide to surrender? As I believe you mentioned, it could turn into some kind of Waco but if I’m correct, there were no police killed at Waco. Some loons effectively committed suicide by shooting at the cops so my sympathy is very limited. Aside from the people holding-off the cops possibly being killed, what’s wrong with this scenario?
Regards
Testy