What would you have the police do? Yes, dudes other than police can say “this is the police, open the door, we have a warrant”. But you can rent police uniforms too. So, there’s nothing that can prove the Police are the Police, is there? :dubious:
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
I agree that it is bullshit, but the reason they don’t operate as you describe is because it gives the people inside of the home time to dispose of drugs down the toilet or wherever. There needs to be a better way to execute this.
Perhaps shut the water off to the house? That gives one half-assed flush and any clown with a wrench can do it. I don’t know.
I’d have been a more formidable opponent. A couple of officers would not have gone home that night, I’m sad to say. But if you kick down my door, I had better see flashing lights outside or you had better be OBVIOUSLY in uniform and holding your badge in the air. With so many home invasions in our area known only via the police scanner because they aren’t in the local paper, I won’t be going for a chest shot.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah well, I’m of the minority opinion that it’s better to maybe lose some evidence occasionally in prosecuting our oh so successful war on drugs than it is to kill a law abiding old lady in her own home. Or give the police the right to forcibly enter our homes if we should be a second or two later in answering the door than some random cop feels is justified. There needs to be some major changes and soon IMO.
[QUOTE=whole bean]
If you can’t gain entry in time to stop the drugs from getting flushed then get a new strategy.
[/QUOTE]
Or as AHunter3 says, if this kind of jackbooted procedure is what’s required to capture drug-crime evidence, then the whole drug-crime thing needs to be rethought from the ground up.
[QUOTE=Mrs. Cake]
Seriously, if you are asleep and someone starts yelling something two rooms away, are you going to immediately understand what they say?
[/QUOTE]
This is a good point. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a 90-year old woman (or anybody, really) to be able to wake from a sound sleep and immediately recognize that the yelling and crashing noises are from the police kicking her door down and not coked-out rapists kicked her door down.
Is suspected possession of drugs such a terrible crime that it’s worth people’s lives? What would have been the harm in not kicking down the door, but instead taking the time to talk to the lady first? Let her wake up, explain who you are, let her look at your badge through the peephole. I’d rather someone got away with possession of drugs than risk gunning down an innocent American in their home.
[QUOTE=Askia]
It is possible the police got everything right. I grant you this is just my opinion that police screwed up. But it’s one shared by Argent Towers that they could have effected entry better.
Whose fault would it have been for scaring her? Who controlled the situation from intial contact and entry the degree of aggression and professionalism displayed? Why deliver a warrant at night on a poorly lit side street in plain clothes instead of uniforms? Why has NONE of the information about this incident revealed who the warrant was for, or what kinds of drugs were being sought? Where did the information come from – an anonymous phoned-in tip, or a snitch off the street?
This is also a community where a 72 year old missionary woman was likely raped and killed by a homeless man not five miles from where this woman’s house is – a man police still haven’t found, in a neighborhood frequented by homeless men.
Some blame needs to be placed at the feet of these cops, cuz any “warrant” that only dregs up a nonegenarian as the only suspect of a drug raid of a given house strikes me as being fatally faulty, given the circumstances.
I’d like to see if any physical evidence backing up the cops’ claims that they were fired on from approach – and that it was from someone INSIDE the house.
[/QUOTE]
You do understand Askia that the matter is being investigated and they will not, nor should they have to, share information pertaining to an open investigation with you, or anyone else who is not associated directly with the investigation- this includes family, freinds, neighbors and witnesses. Hell, the police officers invovled themselves will likely not be clued into the investigation.
The reason why there are conflicting reports is because everyone is scrambling to get a story. They talk to person A, or person B, then run with it. This is why an investigation is so important, they talk to all of the people involved and come up with a conclusion.
Regrettably, everyone always thinks their opinion is valid and is willing to come to a conclusion, even though they frequently say things like, “well that could have happened, but I don’t THINK so”, or “It has to be something bad because I once had a traffic ticket and…”.
This is a tragic situation. One dead, three injured. I suggest we hold all conclusions until the facts come in. Anything short of that is spouting off worthless and ignorant opinions.
[QUOTE=Lissa]
When my husband goes along on raids, he wears a white bullet-proof vest over his civilian clothes. He has a badge on a chain that he wears around his neck, plainly visible against the white vest because of the black leather backing behind it.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a mode of dress readily available to gangbangers, career criminals, and bounty hunters…
OMFG!! I can’t believe you people!! Everyone is going on about poor granny getting shot by the brutal oppressive police, storming into her home and scaring her out of her wits. Check your newspapers, folks. Being a grandmother does not preclude you from being a drug dealer or from having your home used as a base for drug manufacture or sales. Doing a quick Google for “grandmother meth”, “grandmother cocaine”, “grandfather meth” or “grandfather cocaine” I came up with over a dozen reports. I remember reading about some seniors selling drugs for supplemental income. This does not include the cases of a little old lady whose grandson has been dealing out of her house, with or without her knowledge. The cops very well may have had the right house.
IANOC but police do quick entries on drug raids with weapons ready because 1) they don’t want the evidence to be destroyed or disposed of and 2) drug dealers tend to be a little reluctant about going to jail and are willing to go down shooting. You want the cops to just ring the bell, ask the people politely to let them in and then wait 5 minutes? That’s a sure way to shot through the closed door.
As for her being gunned down, she shot at the cops! If you don’t want to get shot by a cop, then fucking cooperate as any normal law-abiding citizen would do. If someone busts in my door yelling, “Search warrant! Police!” and I have nothing to hide, then I will cooperate upon seeing their badges.
Plus, let’s suppose that she shot the cops after they busted through the door. That means she had the weapon immediately available, either on a table next to her or holstered. She was expecting trouble. I have gun owning friends who live in “questionable” neighborhoods and the weapons are accessible but not in the couple seconds she would have had.
If someone in her neighborhood had been raped and killed, do you think the rapists would have busted down the door with a battering ram (SOP for cops to use), shouting out, “Police! Search warrant!” as they ran in? If they did kick down the door, I seriously doubt they’d want to add to the noise of their breaking and entering by adding a distinctive voice and message! When the rape and murder was reported, the neighbors would be telling any reporters, “Hey! I heard the person shout out that they were cops!”
Again IANAC and IANAL, the cops serving the warrant are not always the ones who requested it in the first place and got judicial approval for probable cause. These are men and woman following the information that was provided to them. If the information they have says that there are drugs in a house, they go in there assuming that there are drugs in the house. And where there are drugs, there are usually weapons.
Finally, cops are out there putting their asses on the line. Depending on the situation they don’t know if they will be coming home that night. They are entering an unknown and potentially deadly situation with no knowledge about the people inside, their mental state and their level of armament. They are trying to keep poison off the streets and put away dangerous individuals.
To all of you gloating about the shooting of three police officers and boo-hooing about a woman being killed after shooting at them, fuck you from the bottom of my heart. If your house gets broken into or a member of your family is assaulted, keep this in mind before you call 911.
[QUOTE=Askia]
…I saw how many cops responded afterwards, how the area was cordoned off, how far neighbors were pushed back away from the house. …
[/QUOTE]
I am not a cop, but I imagine that an officer down or officer needs assistance call on the radio would bring any available cop anywhere near there down on the scene. I suspect the area was cordoned off so that there could be an investigation, and that the neighbors were pushed back for the same reason.
I am not saying that the cops did or didn’t screw up, I don’t know, but these seems seem like well known, accepted, standard procedure. If anyone knws otherwise, please feel free o make me less ignorant.
Also, where did this inf come from that she was asleep in bed? Did I miss something?
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat]
This woman managed to hit 3 people who, it would appear, she thought were invading her house. What makes you think she was an unsuitable person to have a gun?
[/QUOTE]
Because it got her killed? The point of having a gun is to defend yourself, not to demonstrate that you’re a good shot.
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
They did knock and announce. They had a valid warrent. “Plainclothes” does not mean the Police weren’t clearly identifyable as cops- many Plainclothes police put on a “raid vest” as they go in.
Why is everyone assuming that this woman could not be a drug dealer or at least a knowing drug warehouser just because of her age and the self-serving statements made by her relatives?
Note that the news story is still so fresh we know little of what really happened and we don’t know the Police dep’t side. We basicly know very little.
Now, let us take the woman age out of it- and assume the House was really being used for drug deals. “Drug dealer shots 3 cops during raid, is killed”- who would be outraged?
Why do we assume her age makes her innocent? Clearly, she was “able”- she shot 3 cops.
I thinks we have to know a lot more before we condemn the cops here. Of course, it could be a giant fuck up and some cops will have to go to jail, too.
[/QUOTE]
They knocked and announced, they also do not say how long they waited. They had a valid warrant for the WRONG HOUSE. I don’t care what ‘plainclothes’ means, unless you can be identified in the dark by a deaf and or blind person you should NOT assume people know you’re police and take that into consideration before you decide to break down somebody’s door at night in a rough neighborhood. Yes it’s a heavy burden, safeguarding the rights of our citizens is a serious matter.. to protect and SERVE remember? When did it become to make busts and cover your ass? Why, exactly, should I ignore her age as a factor in determining her probable innocence? I would be willing to bet any amount of money that the number of 90+ year old people who are drug dealers are far exceeded by the number of criminal cops or criminals posing as cops. Should I ignore the fact that it was cops serving a warrant that were involved in this shooting? I think they should be fired and the laws changed, I don’t think they should be prosecuted because as fucked up and wrong as this is they were just doing their job.. if they were actual criminals I’d want them in prison for life.
[QUOTE=erie774]
If your house gets broken into or a member of your family is assaulted, keep this in mind before you call 911.
[/QUOTE]
Is this supposed to be ironic? Or does it exclude cases of police breaking into houses and shooting people?
[QUOTE=erie774]
If someone busts in my door yelling, “Search warrant! Police!” and I have nothing to hide, then I will cooperate upon seeing their badges.
[/QUOTE]
That kind of hestitation could get you killed. If they’re busting in, there is no time to cooperate upon seeing their badges much less ascertaining that they areeven legitimate badges.
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
What would you have the police do? Yes, dudes other than police can say “this is the police, open the door, we have a warrant”. But you can rent police uniforms too. So, there’s nothing that can prove the Police are the Police, is there? :dubious:
[/QUOTE]
You can rent APD uniforms? Bullshit. Maybe you could assemble one. You gonna get a blue car with a light bar too, and a bunch of other friends to play along? Some of you fucking amaze me. This bullshit about looking to see whose just barged into your house. Some of y’all live in la-la-fucking-land. Some mother fucker barrels through my door in the middle of the night can call himself Aleberto fucking Gonzalez for all I care, unless he’s wearing a police uniform and showing a badge, my instinct is to fucking turn his head into a canoe first and ask questions later. Some of y’all seem all to ready to surrender my liberty for your illusion of security.
[QUOTE=Dumbguy]
Because it got her killed? The point of having a gun is to defend yourself, not to demonstrate that you’re a good shot.
[/QUOTE]
a bullshit warrant policy got her kiled
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
What would you have the police do? Yes, dudes other than police can say “this is the police, open the door, we have a warrant”. But you can rent police uniforms too. So, there’s nothing that can prove the Police are the Police, is there? :dubious:
[/QUOTE]
but since you’re so unquestioning. Deth, this is God, send all of your money to whole bean.
[QUOTE=lokij]
They knocked and announced, they also do not say how long they waited. They had a valid warrant for the WRONG HOUSE. Why, exactly, should I ignore her age as a factor in determining her probable innocence? .
[/QUOTE]
The cites say different: "night, said the warrant was served at the correct address. " "Assistant Chief Alan Dreher told AP that the officers had a legal warrant and “knocked and announced” before they forced open the door. "
And, a 92 year old woman can be a criminal as much as any other age or sex. Clearly, as the 3 wounded police officers show, she was dangerous.
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
And, a 92 year old woman can be a criminal as much as any other age or sex. Clearly, as the 3 wounded police officers show, she was dangerous.
[/QUOTE]
this is circular logic. I am dangerous to an intruder, doens’t make me a criminal.
Count me as deeply shocked they did not find any drugs at her house, regardless of whether drugs were there before the raid or not.
To me this speaks volumes of the failure of modern law enforcement techniques. Cops should be familiar with the neighborhoods they are policing. They should be especially aware of the elderly living alone who may be most vulnerable and watch out for them.
The cops did not do everything right, or they would have not executed that warrant in that manner. Did they think that she was the dangerous felon? If so, I would think that all three of them getting shot shows less than ideal police work. they are lucky she did not plug all three in the head. Each police officer there let down the other two; shouldn’t one in three be able to keep his fellow from being shot since there was only one “assailant”. If they thought she might be in there with a dangerous felon, then the raid shows a serious disregard for the safety of civilians.
The accounts I read are that she shot all of them once, then they gunned her down with a rain of bullets. Something there is not right at all.
An old woman who can shoot three armed aggressors as they break into her home, well I can’t think of anyone better to have a gun.
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
And, a 92 year old woman can be a criminal as much as any other age or sex. Clearly, as the 3 wounded police officers show, she was dangerous.
[/QUOTE]
The three wounded police officers may show that she was in fact a dangerous cop-killer eager to pump bullets into any police officer she could get her hands on. Or they may show that she was someone who falsely thought her life was in danger from armed intruders and needed to protect herself. Or they may show that she was completely senile and thought the police officers were her grandchildren and the gun was a cotton candy machine.
The fact that a shooting occured doesn’t automatically make her a dangerous criminal any more than a shooting by a police officer automatically makes him a bloodthirsty murderer.
[QUOTE=lee]
Count me as deeply shocked they did not find any drugs at her house, regardless of whether drugs were there before the raid or not.
.
[/QUOTE]
Objection- *facts not in evidence. * The story is less than 12 hours old, the Police haven’t even had their news conference about it yet (scheduled today @11AM their time), and half of you dudes are jumping to conclusions about it being “the wrong house” and “no drugs were found”. 5 pages of idiots jumping to conlusions before even twelve hours have past and before the Police have even had a chance to make their statement to the press. I am going to wait until we have a few facts myself. :rolleyes: