# My (admittedly uneducated, and short) case for why Jesus was the Son of God **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2022, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927 "2022-10-28T16:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/21 "2022-10-28T17:49:33Z")
> [@solost](#): > > That was my reading of the OP as well, except point 2 was more like: > > But when the Gospels report the disciples denying that Jesus was divine, it was proof he was divine because if the Gospels were making things up, why would they print that detail? But the exact extent to which that’s a good point is also the extent to which you’d want to print that very detail: because it gives people the ability to say, _now, why would they put that in, if they were making it up? Therefore they weren’t making it up!_ (Like, if I’m telling you the story of how I totally defeated the heavyweight champ in a straight fistfight, and I say “but I have to admit, he had me worried for a minute; he dodged my left hook, and slipped a couple of really deft punches past my defenses, before I spotted the flaw in his technique and knocked him out” — that doesn’t make my story true; it just lets me throw in a “hey, if I were making this up, why would I say that?”) ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/22 "2022-10-28T17:54:17Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > But every one of the original disciples, every one except Judas, ended up suffering an excruciating death for their belief and testimony that Jesus was the Messiah. Would they have really done that if they knew they weren’t telling the truth? Two words for ya: Jim Jones ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/23 "2022-10-28T17:55:24Z")
> [@solost](#): > > where’s a ‘head slap’ emoji when ya need one? We used to have a really good one. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/24 "2022-10-28T18:04:55Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > And in the Gospels, all of the men abandoned Jesus in his hour of need, and they were depicted as not believing the women who told them that Jesus had been resurrected, even though Jesus had told them it was going to happen. Doesn’t that seem like the kind of detail you’d want to leave _out_ of the Gospels if you’re trying to portray the Disciples as these larger-than-life figures? Such a detail (if true) could be evidence of fallible humans and thus an imperfect book that is someone more true because of it. Or it might just be a very inconsistent book from which little factual information can be gleaned or trusted. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/25 "2022-10-28T18:10:10Z")
> [@solost](#): > > …where’s a ‘head slap’ emoji when ya need one?.. Here ya go: 🤦🏽‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/26 "2022-10-28T18:18:32Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Here ya go: 🤦🏽‍♂️ Oh, so Discourse does have one, couldn’t find it. Huh, thanks. > [@garygnu](#): > > We used to have a really good one. garygnu is right though, the old one was much better. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/27 "2022-10-28T18:22:32Z")
People die for their beliefs all the time, even if they aren’t religious in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/28 "2022-10-28T18:50:05Z")
None of these good points address the son of god problem. Since the Gospels were written long after the events, even if the disciples had died for the cause (and there is scant evidence of that) perhaps they died thinking Jesus was the true Messiah, who was not supposed to be the son of God, which is a pretty absurd concept in Jewish lore. (But not in pagan lore - the Gods spewed out sons all over the place.) So the argument in the OP doesn’t hold up, even if the premise had been true. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/29 "2022-10-28T18:52:25Z")
> [@solost](#): > > …garygnu is right though, the old one was much better… Yeah, it definitely was. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/30 "2022-10-28T19:30:52Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > But every one of the original disciples, every one except Judas, ended up suffering an excruciating death for their belief and testimony that Jesus was the Messiah. Would they have really done that if they knew they weren’t telling the truth? History is filled with cult followers who died for their beliefs. That doesn’t mean their beliefs were true, only that some people thought they were true. Don’t confuse beliefs with factual truth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/31 "2022-10-28T19:37:45Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > That doesn’t mean that cause is true, only that people thought it was true. Don’t confuse belief with factual truth. And, taking things at face value for a moment: why does Joseph come to believe the claim in question about Jesus? Per the text, he thought it was true because he heard it from an angel… …in a dream. If we take that seriously, then people back then would believe stuff as if they’d heard it from an angel _in real life while wide awake_ if they instead merely hear it _in a dream while asleep._ That is, as far as I can tell, exactly how easy it was for them to start believing this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/32 "2022-10-28T19:57:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Only two of the apostles had their deaths mentioned in the New Testament. Judas committed suicide by hanging himself (Matthew 27:5). And King Herod had James, the son of Zebedee, killed with a sword. (Acts 12:2). Judas isn’t normally accounted among the apostles, for obvious reasons, so James the son of Zebedee is the only one whose death is mentioned in the Bible. All the other deaths were only recorded by tradition, so are (literally?) apocryphal. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/33 "2022-10-28T20:01:17Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Two words for ya: Jim Jones Don’t forget David Koresh. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/34 "2022-10-28T20:04:33Z")
For a more educated and longer take on the subject, check out _Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth_, by Reza Aslan, a noted scholar of the sociology of religion. His conclusion from the historical record is that Jesus was primarily a political revolutionary who also worked some quasi-religious themes into his preaching, but his primary goal was the liberation of Judea from tyrannical Roman rule. He was crucified mainly for being perceived as a threat to the Roman state. The alleged inscription on the cross, INRI, if true would have meant “Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum”, or “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews”, sometimes described as a mocking humiliation but in reality was probably meant literally. The “Son of God” stuff and the rest of the mythology was created over the ensuing centuries, formalized in the fourth century by the Nicene Creed and its amendment, the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, which established mainstream Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/35 "2022-10-28T20:18:43Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > > [@AHunter3](#): > > > > Two words for ya: Jim Jones > > Don’t forget David Koresh. And one of the goofiest, Marshall Applewhite. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/36 "2022-10-28T20:20:12Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And one of the goofiest, Marshall Applewhite. They’re all Sons of God, and so are their wives. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/37 "2022-10-28T20:29:08Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > > [@AHunter3](#): > > > > Two words for ya: Jim Jones > > Don’t forget David Koresh. There was also that bizarre Heaven’s Gate / Hale-Bopp thing. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/38 "2022-10-28T20:54:50Z")
My thoughts exactly. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/39 "2022-10-28T20:58:35Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > And in the Gospels, all of the men abandoned Jesus in his hour of need, and they were depicted as not believing the women who told them that Jesus had been resurrected, even though Jesus had told them it was going to happen. Doesn’t that seem like the kind of detail you’d want to leave _out_ of the Gospels if you’re trying to portray the Disciples as these larger-than-life figures? It sounds like you think this detail would be left out by someone who was trying to persuade us of something, because it’s an unpersuasive detail; and because it’s unpersuasive, the fact that they left it in is persuasive, making it a persuasive detail. I’m not sure I follow your logic here. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/40 "2022-10-28T21:00:25Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > _Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth_, by Reza Aslan A very good book. It also puts the blame/responsibility/praise/origin/reason for Christianity where it belongs: Paul. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927.md?page=3)