# My (admittedly uneducated, and short) case for why Jesus was the Son of God **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2022, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927 "2022-10-28T16:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/41 "2022-10-28T21:46:21Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > … ended up suffering an excruciating death for their belief Being prepared to die for your beliefs is pretty good evidence that you believe your beliefs. But having a conviction doesn’t make you right. There’s also a disconnect between faith and facts. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/42 "2022-10-28T22:05:15Z")
WTELF > [@](#): > > According to legend, (the apostle Bartholowew) was skinned alive and beheaded, often being depicted holding his flayed skin or the curved flensing knife with which he was skinned; thus, he is remembered and approved as **the patron saint of leathermakers**. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/43 "2022-10-28T22:52:37Z")
Well, don’t reject a good pelt that’s left over. Can make for a warm winter coat. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/44 "2022-10-28T23:13:06Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > According to legend, (the apostle Bartholowew) was skinned alive and beheaded, often being depicted holding his flayed skin or the curved flensing knife with which he was skinned; thus, he is remembered and approved as **the patron saint of leathermakers**. And there was also [St. Hubbins](https://youtu.be/RobPzv3KYcI?t=119), (the patron saint of quality footwear), in the gospel according to Spinal Tap. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/45 "2022-10-28T23:46:02Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > But every one of the original disciples, every one except Judas, ended up suffering an excruciating death for their belief and testimony that Jesus was the Messiah. Would they have really done that if they knew they weren’t telling the truth? > > And in the Gospels, all of the men abandoned Jesus in his hour of need, and they were depicted as not believing the women who told them that Jesus had been resurrected, even though Jesus had told them it was going to happen. Doesn’t that seem like the kind of detail you’d want to leave out of the Gospels if you’re trying to portray the Disciples as these larger-than-life figures? Two, incredibly, weak arguments . . . but at least they’re not Pascal’s Wager. There are literally thousands of hours of YouTube videos explaining just how bad they are. Start here, > **[Paulogia](https://www.youtube.com/c/Paulogia)** > > A former Christian takes a look at the claims of Christians, wherever science is being denied in the name of ancient books. Then learn about The Flying Man, > **[PineCreek](https://www.youtube.com/c/PineCreekDoug)** > > Former Christian of 30+ years. I have attended Mennonite, Pentecostal, Seeker Sensitive (Willow Creek model), non-denominational, Calvary Chapel, and Presbyterian denominations. I now consider myself an atheist. If you would like to join Doug for a... ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/46 "2022-10-29T00:46:06Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > And in the Gospels, all of the men abandoned Jesus in his hour of need, and they were depicted as not believing the women who told them that Jesus had been resurrected, even though Jesus had told them it was going to happen. You’re missing the meaning of these stories. The point is that his disciples initially lost faith but then regained it. They are there as an example of what Christians should do if they start feeling doubts and are very much in fitting with the rest of the message. The other possibility, if you want to take the description in the bible as accurate, is that after Jesus was died, some other guy decided to continue his ministry by pretending to be him. But thanks to a fair amount of desire for it to be true and confirmation bias he convinced them that he was Jesus reincarnated. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/47 "2022-10-29T00:52:09Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Judas isn’t normally accounted among the apostles, for obvious reasons, I’ve never quite understood that - Judas had so much faith that Jesus was the Messiah and was going to usher in the new kingdom that he felt all he had to do was give him (Jesus) a little push to move it along. He lost faith when his choice was killed in front of his eyes and the kingdom was not ushered in. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/48 "2022-10-29T01:14:38Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > All the other deaths were only recorded by tradition, so are (literally?) apocryphal. The multiplicity of details in the apocrypha doesn’t lend to them being accepted as unimpeachable history. There are, for example, four differing accounts of how the apostle Matthias died. This is also true in the canonically accepted books of the Bible as well. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/49 "2022-10-29T01:16:11Z")
Without Judas the road to Calvary gets a lot longer. You can read\* “_I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me._” as a order as easily as you can read it as an accusation. \*What this might be in the original language notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/50 "2022-10-29T01:20:56Z")
Here is the best rendering of the story of Jesus ever, > [@Did Jesus really exist? And what's with the Shroud of Turin?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/64): > > There is a description of Jesus at Galilee in Mark 1:22 (ASV): > > “And they were astonished at his teaching: for he taught them as having authority, and not as the scribes.” > > He taught a humanist philosophy, not the biblical scriptures. He joined a group that was running a medicine show and became their star act. They sometimes disagree on funding, philosophy and history. He repeatedly admonishes them to not tell people he is god or that he is working miracles. After 3 years he tells them he is returning home. They panic because that would leave them bankrupt (Jesus paid for the last supper). They will do anything to keep him from leaving. Hence they keep trying various schemes until they manage to get him crucified. It’s been a long time since I read it, but the book “The Passover Plot” covers the crucifixion. . > > Most of the book of Mark is a hard sell by the Apostles, but close examination exposes the real Jesus. Of course, the Apostles won and went on to create the elaborate mythology of the misnamed ‘Christianity’. I would definitely go see _Jesus & the Twelve Stooges_ when it comes out. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/51 "2022-10-29T02:33:17Z")
I’m Xian, and the argument doesn’t work for me. I tend toward Bultmanian theology, which posits that resurrection is a metaphor for the apostles keeping the faith in Jesus’ teachings. That doesn’t necessarily mean he was more a son of God than they were. According to the NT he taught his disciples to pray “our Father…”. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/52 "2022-10-29T05:44:45Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > That doesn’t necessarily mean he was more a son of God than they were. According to the NT he taught his disciples to pray “our Father…”. ^^^ This. Jesus of Nazareth brought the word. Calling him himself The Word is a metaphor at best and a sacrilege at worst. Messengers are important but not in the same sense that the message is important. Some strands of Christianity have dipped him (or his corpse) in gold and set it on the altar to be worshiped. That would have appalled him. Even if, for the sake of argument, he had an ego on him, and would not entirely turn down some admiration, to have his message, which was his purpose in life, ignored in favor of worshiping his persona would utterly nauseate him. That’s idolatry. We’re all children of God. Not all children of God happen to have borne a message as important as the one he brought to us, but we’re still intrinsically divine and need to learn to live up to that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/53 "2022-10-29T06:50:01Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Two words for ya: Jim Jones To be fair, Jones didn’t exactly give his parishoners much choice in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/54 "2022-10-29T15:43:13Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Some strands of Christianity have dipped him (or his corpse) in gold and set it on the altar to be worshiped. Do you consider that the traditions which use or follow the Nicene Creed would all fall into this category of (inappropriately) worshiping Jesus himself? IMO not only do Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Eastern Orthodox explicitly subscribe to the Creed, but also most Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and other mainstream Protestants would assent to the basic theology encapsulated in this section: > We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, > ⁠the only Son of God, > ⁠eternally begotten of the Father, > ⁠God from God, Light from Light, > ⁠true God from true God, > ⁠begotten, not made, > ⁠of one Being with the Father. > ⁠Through him all things were made. Later in the Creed, there is also “With the Father and the Son [the Holy Spirit] is worshiped and glorified.” I.e., all three members of the Trinity are God, and to be worshiped. I don’t presume to understand the Mysteries, nor do I necessarily believe them, but this is the basic formula for billions of Christians. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/55 "2022-10-29T16:26:06Z")
> [@Briny\_Deep](#): > > IMO not only do Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Eastern Orthodox explicitly subscribe to the Creed, but also most Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and other mainstream Protestants would assent to the basic theology encapsulated in this section: > [@Briny\_Deep](#): > > I don’t presume to understand the Mysteries, nor do I necessarily believe them, but this is the basic formula for billions of Christians. This is just the argument in the OP writ large: ‘several people believe it, so it must be true.’ ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/56 "2022-10-29T16:29:38Z")
I asked my uncle, a strict American (not Southern) Baptist about this. He said that the literal ressurection was vital to his faith, and proving it wrong would cause everything to collapse. He had no problem with the concept of each “day” of creation being on Og’s clock, perhaps hundreds of millions of years long, but jesus absolutely had to have returned from death (and, of course, _proving_ otherwise is essentially impossible, so his afterlife-insurance was safe). ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/57 "2022-10-29T16:31:13Z")
But I do not argue that it must be true at all. I’m asking a different question. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/58 "2022-10-29T16:34:25Z")
You’re using the exactly the same _argument_ to support this (slightly) different question, though. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/59 "2022-10-29T16:37:42Z")
> [@Briny\_Deep](#): > > > [@AHunter3](#): > > > > Some strands of Christianity have dipped him (or his corpse) in gold and set it on the altar to be worshiped. > > Do you consider that the traditions which use or follow the Nicene Creed would all fall into this category of (inappropriately) worshiping Jesus himself? Speaking as a Jew, absolutely. The Messiah will be a man. A human being, of the line of David. Only God Himself should be worshipped, not his messenger. And Jesus, as best as we can tell, agreed with this. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/60 "2022-10-29T16:41:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And Jesus, as best as we can tell, agreed with this. This idea is interesting to me, and I see support for it in the Gospels. If true, it does seem to mean that the bulk of Christianity has gotten it all wrong from almost the very beginning (and that’s the question I’m asking about the Creed; is that what it really means?) But I think I’m hijacking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927.md?page=4)