# My (admittedly uneducated, and short) case for why Jesus was the Son of God **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2022, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927 "2022-10-28T16:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/81 "2022-10-30T02:16:59Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > everything Aslan wrote about that history Who is Aslan, besides not a tame lion? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/82 "2022-10-30T02:29:59Z")
An author > **[Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth: Aslan, Reza: 8601411333651:...](https://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/0812981480)** > > Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth \[Aslan, Reza\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/83 "2022-10-30T12:48:27Z")
The _Book of Mormon_ was publised in 1830 and Joseph Smith died in 1844, and yet over this short period, as well as in the half dozen years prior to the publication, Mormonism radically changes a number of times to be completely unrecognizable from its beginnings to the various factions which split off after Smith’s death (as well as from before). One non-Mormon scholar I listened to said she got interested in Mormon studies because she believes that early Christianity and other movements would likely have seen similar processes. One example of a change in doctrine is the evolution of the priesthood as really a nonfactor to became the _raison d’etre_ of the LDS church. Revelations which were written in 1830 and published within a few years of that were rewritten and republished a few years after that to include the priesthood. Several foundational myths of angels restoring ancient priesthoods to Joseph Smith were created and backdated to prior to the publishing of the _Book of Mormon_. Given how radically Mormonism changed even within lifetime of the founder, and then watching the two main branches split over the question of polygamy, with both sides hiding evidence and creating other evidence, it’s safe to bet that similar examples happened in the Jesus movements as well. It’s been a while since I read _[The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics](https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Satan-Christians-Demonized-Heretics/dp/0679731180)_ by Elaine Pagels, but she did an excellent job explaining the differences in the Gospels and goes through and shows how the doctrines changed between Mark, the first, and John, the last. The time difference between the estimated dates of the historical Jesus and Mark is much less than the various periods of major changes of Mormonism. > [@eschereal](#): > > I asked my uncle, a strict American (not Southern) Baptist about this. He said that the literal ressurection was vital to his faith, and proving it wrong would cause everything to collapse. It’s interesting to see what causes people to completely lose their faith. As a former Mormon, what caused me to lose my faith didn’t faze other people, but some people lost their belief over things which didn’t bother me. > [@ekedolphin](#): > > Doesn’t that seem like the kind of detail you’d want to leave _out_ of the Gospels if you’re trying to portray the Disciples as these larger-than-life figures? This is called the criterion of embarrassment and it has a long history of being (mis)used by apologists of the New Testament. It’s s simplistic argument and doesn’t prove anything to anyone who isn’t already inclined to believe. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/84 "2022-10-30T13:25:50Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > This is called the criterion of embarrassment and it has a long history of being (mis)used by apologists of the New Testament. It’s s simplistic argument and doesn’t prove anything to anyone who isn’t already inclined to believe. It’s kind of like saying that James Bond must be real instead of fictional, because he slips up and gets captured in the _very same story_ where he eventually punches out the bad guy and saves the world and beds a succession of hot chicks along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/85 "2022-10-30T14:16:29Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It’s kind of like saying that James Bond must be real instead of fictional, because he slips up and gets captured in the _very same story_ where he eventually punches out the bad guy and saves the world and beds a succession of hot chicks along the way. Don’t mock the Sacred Trinity; the Roger, the Sean, and the Holy Lazenby. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/86 "2022-10-30T14:30:36Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > But every one of the original disciples, every one except Judas, ended up suffering an excruciating death for their belief and testimony that Jesus was the Messiah. Would they have really done that if they knew they weren’t telling the truth? You would have to first prove that the disciples are real people who actually existed. They didn’t write those Bible stories. Your case for why Jesus is the Son of God is basically, “These fantasy people believe this fantasy character was the Son of God, so that means in reality all these people existed and Jesus was both a real-life person and really the Son of a God who herself has not been proven to exist”. No evidence of an existence of God. No Evidence that the character Jesus existed. No evidence that the disciple characters existed. But you think you have an excellent case for why Jesus was the Son of God. I don’t think its a strong case. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/87 "2022-10-30T20:01:20Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It’s kind of like saying that James Bond must be real instead of fictional, because he slips up and gets captured in the _very same story_ where he eventually punches out the bad guy and saves the world and beds a succession of hot chicks along the way. You left out the part where after Bond escapes he runs back to HQ and never tells anyone the story of his capture . . . but somehow the author knows everything that happened. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/88 "2022-10-30T20:33:10Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > You left out the part where after Bond escapes he runs back to HQ and never tells anyone the story of his capture . . . but somehow the author knows everything that happened. Good one. The description of events that no one could have seen in the Bible, especially the Gospel writer, is a lot more indicative of a work of fiction than a work of history. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/89 "2022-10-30T23:07:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Good one. The description of events that no one could have seen in the Bible, especially the Gospel writer, is a lot more indicative of a work of fiction than a work of history. _“Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done._ _“And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,_ _“Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept._ _“And if this come to the governor’s ears, we will persuade him, and secure you._ _“So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.”_ So, first off: if, per the text, the relevant folks sid what they were told to do, then — what? Maybe this gets mentioned somewhere else in the Bible and I’ve just missed it, but: how, exactly, did this tidbit get out? Did someone at this conversation blab? (And, second, leave aside for a moment whether it’s true; just note that the whole story hangs together if, and only if, everyone takes as the plausible starting point that, _yup, these guys can be bribed to say what people ask them to say about what happened at the tomb of Jesus._) ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/90 "2022-10-31T00:13:26Z")
The bottom line is that whether or not he “truly wuz the son of Gawd,” as John Wayne as the centurian said means Jack Shit to progressive Christians. It’s how he lived, not how he died. Whether or not he existed is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/91 "2022-10-31T05:27:23Z")
Not to mention that really terrible things happened to Roman soldiers who did not do their duty. I don’t think getting bribed would help. So them giving this as an excuse is a bit implausible. Fiction. I should have said bad fiction. As Tom Paine said (The Age of Reason, p. 108) “This book, the Bible, is too ridiculous for criticism.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/92 "2022-10-31T06:37:41Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > It’s how he lived, not how he died. Whether or not he existed is not relevant. Excuse me, but whether or not he existed in the first place is totally relevant to the question as to how he lived. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/93 "2022-10-31T07:33:54Z")
P-man’s point was about what is relevant to christains, who will not entertain the possibility that he did not have blonde hair and blue eyes or did not exist. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/94 "2022-10-31T12:57:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@P-man](#): > > > > It’s how he lived, not how he died. Whether or not he existed is not relevant. > > Excuse me, but whether or not he existed in the first place is totally relevant to the question as to how he lived. Not necessarily. Myths have power, and matter, whether or not they are true. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/95 "2022-10-31T15:26:24Z")
Real or not, they form the foundation of a society and fulfill a need people have. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/96 "2022-10-31T21:04:45Z")
> [@Briny\_Deep](#): > > Later in the Creed, there is also “With the Father and the Son [the Holy Spirit] is worshiped and glorified.” I.e., all three members of the Trinity are God, and to be worshiped. Exactly. St. Patrick used the clover to describe the trinity (3 leaves, but one plant); I like to think of it as one being with three personalities (faces, facets, whatever) 1. God the Creator - the Grand Omnipotant Stomper; creates worlds; creates beings (through evolution? why not!). Omniscient, omnipotent, the “jealous God” of the Old Testiment 2. Christ the Human face - he brings the human emotion to the being 3. The Holy Spirit - this is the communications face. God doesn’t come through a burning bush any more - he’s a bit more subtle. These are three different aspects of the same being, kinda like one human can be a family man around the house, an office worker at the office, and an actor at the community theater. Three aspects of the same individual. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/97 "2022-10-31T21:14:00Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > These are three different aspects of the same being, kinda like one human can be a family man around the house, an office worker at the office, and an actor at the community theater. Three aspects of the same individual. Can they will different things? Does one know stuff that another doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/98 "2022-10-31T22:37:39Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But the exact extent to which that’s a good point is also the extent to which you’d want to print that very detail: because it gives people the ability to say, _now, why would they put that in, if they were making it up? Therefore they weren’t making it up!_ I think it’s more a matter of, which is more believable: an account that’s basically a hagiography, or one that shows both strengths and flaws of the people being portrayed? Does inclusion of less-than-flattering details prove the story’s true? No, but it’s one less reason to simply dismiss the Gospels out of hand. I strongly concur with the overwhelming sentiment in this thread that martyrdom proves nothing. And I agree also that there’s no historical ‘proof’ of Jesus’ divinity or Messiahship. Why would I care anyway, even if the evidence for Jesus’ divinity was solid and ironclad? Like that old fellowshippy song goes: _I will celebrate Nativity, for it has a place in history_ _Sure, he came to set his people free, what is that to me?_ OK, so he’s God, so what? Why does it matter, why should it matter, to anyone now? What does believing that Jesus is God, or part of God, or whatever, actually accomplish? How does it make anyone’s life better? And if it doesn’t, then what does it matter if one believes or not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/99 "2022-11-01T03:26:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think it’s more a matter of, which is more believable: an account that’s basically a hagiography, or one that shows both strengths and flaws of the people being portrayed? Each one could be shown to be more believable _after the fact_. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927/100 "2022-11-01T05:37:53Z")
Goofus and Gallant are both fictional but kids can learn from their example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-admittedly-uneducated-and-short-case-for-why-jesus-was-the-son-of-god/973927.md?page=6)