My (admittedly uneducated, and short) case for why Jesus was the Son of God

[SCAdian]

@wolfpup

For a more educated and longer take on the subject, check out Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, by Reza Aslan, a noted scholar of the sociology of religion.

Excellent book. Thank you.

[Voyager]

@DrDeth

Sure the whole Father, Son & Holy Ghost: Trinity came about fairly later, but Jesus being the Son of God was even while He was alive.

There is no way of knowing that. Certainly it was not one of the characteristics expected of the Messiah. Still isn’t.

[Whack-a-Mole]

Well…all cites are from the bible. Sort of a, “cuz I said so” proof.

But there are plenty of places in the bible saying Jesus was the son of god.

26 Bible verses about Jesus Christ, Son Of God

[crowmanyclouds]

@Voyager

Certainly it was not one of the characteristics expected of the Messiah.

A list which Jesus does not score very high on*.
Even if you don’t ignore all the things that were tweaked so they could be seen as Jesus fulfilling the characteristics expected of the Messiah.

[puzzlegal]

There are even places in the Gospels saying it. Thanks.

I’m dubious that anyone thought he was the son of God during his lifetime. I’m pretty sure that was added later. But i have no proof, of course. It’s just that Jesus seems to have been a Jew, and seems to have presented himself as a Messiah (all the kings of the Jews were messiahs, which just means “anointed”, starting with King Saul, in first Samuel 10), and one of the characteristics of the promised Messiah is that he is human.

[crowmanyclouds]

@puzzlegal

There are even places in the Gospels saying it. Thanks.

I’m dubious that anyone thought he was the son of God during his lifetime.

Yeah, there is that small problem of the Gospels not being written during his lifetime.

[Slow_Moving_Vehicle]

@Voyager

@eschereal

The monotheism of Judaism is pretty shaky. The first commandment, “… have no other gods before me …” is problematic. And the variety of lower-level superbeings that do magical things further weakens the claim. Baal was never explicitly stated to be not an actual deity. And look at Job: there is an enormously powerful critter involved in that story that clearly points toward pantheonism.

That’s true, but Judaism was monotheistic by the time of Jesus. I doubt many Jews living at the time were aware of the origins of their religion.
And early Judaism not only accepted the existence of other gods, but seems to evolved from a polytheistic religion. There is a term for worshiping one god while accepting that there are more, but I can’t think of it at the moment.
It isn’t pantheism, if that is what you meant to write

Monolatry.

[DrDeth]

@crowmanyclouds

Yeah, there is that small problem of the Gospels not being written during his lifetime.

Most autobiographies are not written during the lifetime of the protagonist, and all histories.

[Tatterdemalion]

@Slow_Moving_Vehicle

Monolatry.

Henotheism?

[Miller]

@DrDeth

Most autobiographies are not written during the lifetime of the protagonist…

That’s a hell of a trick.

[DrDeth]

Duh-oh! Lol.

However, given that most autobiographies are ghost written…

[Czarcasm]

Holy Ghost written, perhaps?

[Saint_Cad]

@ekedolphin

Would they have really done that if they knew they weren’t telling the truth?

So they believed it therefore it’s true? Sounds like Flat Earth logic.

[Slow_Moving_Vehicle]

@Tatterdemalion

@Slow_Moving_Vehicle

Monolatry.

Henotheism?

Monolatry is the more accurate term. Per Wikipedia,

Monolatry is distinguished from monotheism, which asserts the existence of only one god, and henotheism, a religious system in which the believer worships one god without denying that others may worship different gods with equal validity.[3]

[P-man]

I lean toward him having existed, but I’d bet the farm again blonde hair and blue eyes. Unless he was some kind of mutant, or the father was a seafaring North European.

[Tatterdemalion]

Way back in school, I was taught that the proper term for the practices described in the old testament was henotheism. The writers of the bible did not seem to deny the existance of other gods, they just said that properly Jewish people couldn’t worship them. It was Ok for people who weren’t Jewish to do so though. This viewpoint evolved through time of course.

I was not aware of the term monolatry as distinct from heotheism. I am not sure that I see much difference. The Wikipedia pages seem to describe something pretty equivalent.

I on the other hand am not a henotheist as such, though I do like fried chicken. With a side of pasta salad since I have been touched by his noodly goodness

[AHunter3]

@DrDeth

Most autobiographies are not written during the lifetime of the protagonist

:dubious:

[Slow_Moving_Vehicle]

@Tatterdemalion

Way back in school, I was taught that the proper term for the practices described in the old testament was henotheism. The writers of the bible did not seem to deny the existance of other gods, they just said that properly Jewish people couldn’t worship them. It was Ok for people who weren’t Jewish to do so though. This viewpoint evolved through time of course.

I was not aware of the term monolatry as distinct from heotheism. I am not sure that I see much difference. The Wikipedia pages seem to describe something pretty equivalent.

I on the other hand am not a henotheist as such, though I do like fried chicken. With a side of pasta salad since I have been touched by his noodly goodness

It’s been a while since I’ve read the Tanak, but IIRC, the early Israelites acknowledged the gods of other nations - Ba’al, Ashtoreth, Dagon, Moloch - but thought they were demons or lesser gods. Which is the difference between monolatry and henotheism, apparently - henotheism says “We worship our god, and those guys over the hill worship their god, but both are pretty cool.” Whereas monolatrists say, “Those idiots over the hill worship their god, but ours can kick his ass.”

[Tatterdemalion]

It seems a pretty fine distinction, but I guess I can see the point.

I’ve learned a new term, one of the things I like about this board.

[Swords_to_Plowshares]

I believe that the disciples believed Jesus was the Son of God. And then they wrote Gospels and the other NT books. So, they claim he was the Son of God, and had divinity.

But the real question to me is - did Jesus himself believe he was the Son of God? did he believe he was divine? I believe he was a real person who existed. But the big mystery to me is, what did he actually say and believe? vs, what was added after the fact in the written Gospels? We know there was a gap between his life and the writing of the Gospels, where the oral tradition was passed down. What survived the oral tradition, and what was filled in later? This is the subject of the book The Five Gospels, which I would recommend to anyone interested in this topic.

I think that question of what he believed has to be answered first in order to ask if he is the Son of God. And I think there’s a lot of open debate on either side of it.