# My annual Miss America rant **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922 "2003-09-21T04:58:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sinshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sinshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinshine)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/61 "2003-09-22T18:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Why do you begrudge this single quality — beauty — as a means for a person to receive recognition and as a basis upon which he or she can compete? \*\* I can’t answer for anyone else here, but I do have an answer for my own self. I look in the mirror, and I see a beautiful woman. I see short, curvaceous, and a great smile. I also see problem skin, frizzy hair, impatience with fussing, and a distinct lack of grace. I look at the women on that stage, and I know I will never be as tall, as slim, as athletic, as graceful, or as well-groomed as they are. Therefore, such beauty as I have does not equip me to compete with these women, and I can be a touch bitter about that if I allow myself to be. Not having entered any beauty contests, I have yet to be boo’ed off the stage or to fail ignominiously, and so this could well be a moot point. I envy the women - in general - who meet up with a standard of beauty I don’t, their success in trading on that beauty, because I can’t. It’s a little disheartening to be talking to an attractive man, only to have a beauty queen enter the room and lose his attention entirely. But such is life, and you make up for your shortcomings with your strengths. I have a great personality, a warm smile, and a good sense of humour. If I do say so myself … ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/62 "2003-09-22T19:30:49Z")
I agree with the OP. Not much more to add. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/63 "2003-09-22T19:54:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Isabelle \* > \*\*Okay you are off on a tangent… > > The pageant was set up ( I am guessing) by manufacturers of women products…the millions in scholarship is “advertisement dollars spent” as such > as long as they find a market for them etc…more power to them that’s $40 mil in scholarships that would not have been…. > \*\* Actually, according to [this link](http://www.pageantcenter.com/pageant_history.html) the pageant began as a publicity gimmick to extend the Atlantic City tourist season past Labor Day until the middle of September. ---
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/64 "2003-09-22T20:32:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > \*\*I’m not a big fan either, but from what I saw tonight these were damn smart “beauties”. One of the final 5 had her medical degree at the age of 23. He talent was playing the cello. \*\* One of my best friends was Miss Vermont. After she explained some of the ins and outs of pageant life and why she did it, I had a newfound respect for her and for pageants. However, that’s only for _scholarship_ pageants - like Miss America and the ones at the community and state level. I still have a major dislike of ‘beauty pageants’ and always will. Miss America seems to force girls to be _more_ than a pretty face - and while I’m not a fan of judging women on their looks, the girls at MA are judged on much more than that. Ava ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/65 "2003-09-22T21:21:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fessie \* > **Perhaps part of the reason such pageants are annoying is that unattractive women receive a lot of scorn in our society. It’s not just that female beauty is held as a high virtue; the lack of it is seen as a serious flaw.** > > As a generally unattractive male, I gotta say it’s not just women. > \*\*Perhaps a male equivalent would be the “Mr. Moneybags” contest, wherein the man who’d managed to accumulate the greatest wealth was offered something of commensurate value…say…Miss America! \*\* Oh good lord PLEASE don’t tell the Fox programming execs this idea!!! ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/66 "2003-09-22T21:53:59Z")
**SnoopyFan** and **Jennyrosity** , I have a reading assignment for you: Vonnegut’s “Harrison Bergeron,” from [_Welcome to the Monkey House_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385333501/qid=1064267598/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-2213086-3758456). Sure, it’s not fair that the beautiful get extra bennies that don’t flow to the rest of us. And it’s true that men aren’t subject to quite the same presumptions,\* but we’ve made progress in limiting their effects, which is a success. At this point, we have more to lose in a slavish devotion to some ideal of equality than we have in occasional, largely silly discrimination. \*Instead, they’re subject to an equally pervasive, equally genetically-based, and (I suspect many would agree) equally unfair sort of discrimination from which women are largely exempt: discrimination on the basis of height. ---
**Author:** ![Magickly\_Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magickly\_Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magickly_Delicious)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/67 "2003-09-22T22:34:33Z")
Actually, the main thing that bothers me about beauty pageants has nothing to do with beauty. Don’t you have to have a _lot_ of money to even participate in those things? I had heard that you needed to pay for things like coaches, expensive gowns, lessons for your talent (violin, cello, dancing, etc.), and so on? ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/68 "2003-09-22T22:34:56Z")
Hey, I got a scholarship in law school from the Tax Executives Institute. Would you go screaming at the TEI for giving money to law students who want to become tax lawyers instead of giving their money to high schoolers who want to become penguin trainers (or whatever)? I suggest the OP is doing exactly this by screaming at the Miss America people for choosing to give thier money to women who are smart, poised, givers to the community, and pretty instead of to women who meet all but the last requirement. It’s their money and they can do what they want with it. ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/69 "2003-09-22T22:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magickly Delicious \* > \*\*Actually, the main thing that bothers me about beauty pageants has nothing to do with beauty. Don’t you have to have a _lot_ of money to even participate in those things? I had heard that you needed to pay for things like coaches, expensive gowns, lessons for your talent (violin, cello, dancing, etc.), and so on? \*\* We’ve had entirely enough bashing of rich people on these boards lately thank you very much. So stop. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/70 "2003-09-22T22:38:15Z")
> [@](#): > > And yes, I know you can argue that being intelligent is also an inherited trait, but I think we can agree that getting to college/uni requires a certain amount of hard work AS WELL. Being pretty doesn’t. For the main this is not really true. Looking good enough to win stuff in modern society requires a lot of hard physical work and discipline. Sure, some people are genetically gifted insofar as they can eat what they like and still look great but they’re one in a million. Oh, and speaking as someone who’s strived to look good _and_ perform well academically despite not being particularly gifted in either area my opinion is that looking good is _much_ more difficult than getting good grades. ---
**Author:** ![Magickly\_Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magickly\_Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magickly_Delicious)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/71 "2003-09-22T22:40:11Z")
I’m very sorry you took offense. I have never been in one or known someone in one and was asking a question. No need to feel you must be on the defense. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/72 "2003-09-22T22:59:04Z")
And now I get to be the prick and ask the question that is right on the tip of the tongue in this discussion. Why is this any different than minority scholarships? I, frankly, can’t see the difference except that these women are beautiful instead of African-American or Hispanic. They are favored over people deemed “less beautiful”. Where does that sound familiar? Just substitute the words “more capable” or “more qualified” for “less beautiful” and tell me that doesn’t sound like race-based preference. Oh, and don’t think that I’m saying that minorities aren’t qualified for anything, ever, because that’s not the case. What is the case, however, as has been amply documented in the U of Michigan Law School case, minorities do in fact recieve a certain amount of preference. Anyone want to tell me the difference? ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/73 "2003-09-22T23:05:05Z")
I was the prick long before you were the prick, but nobody paid me any mind. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/74 "2003-09-22T23:08:20Z")
Oh, don’t worry. I have a bit of a reputation with asking very unpopular questions. Keep at it for a few years like me and you’ll get all you can handle. Not that that’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/75 "2003-09-23T00:20:54Z")
Let’s look at how the scoring goes: **"40% for Composite Score from preliminary competitions 20% Talent Competition 10% for Casual Wear competition 10% for Swimsuit competition 10% for Evening Wear competition 5% for Platform question 5% for Quiz"** Guess what the “Preliminary Competitions” are that the “composite score” is based off of? 1. The private interview 2. Casual wear competition 3. Talent Competition 4. Swimsuit competition 5. Evening wear competition Chances are out of these 5 criteria, the private interview is probably half of the composite score, or 20% of the total score. The rest are probably 5% of the total score. Turns out Miss America’s gotta put that bathing suit on not once, but twice – not to mention the evening gown and “casual wear.” That’s 45% of the score based on what she looks like in **clothes.** I never said that Miss America doesn’t have the right to do with their money what they want. I was lamenting that it’s pretty darn sad that the #1 scholarship program **for women** in the US involves putting on a swimsuit. I can’t tell Miss America what to do with their 40 million bucks but one would hope that someday we will evolve to a point where a woman wouldn’t NEED to stand around looking pretty to get scholarship money, but that she’d be judged solely on her merits alone. A pipe dream, I know. Yes, others have shown that the swimsuit competition comprises a small percentage of a contestant’s score (funny how it counts more than the general knowledge quiz and the big interview question during the competition, though). However, I stand by my statement that it is a requirement to get the scholarship money. The day a woman refuses to do the swimsuit competition and STILL wins the pageant, I’ll believe that it’s not a meat market and gladly retract my statements. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/76 "2003-09-23T01:12:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Keek \* > \*\*Are those extremely creepy kiddie beauty shows still popular in the US? Now those ARE weird. \*\* I agree on the creepiness, but not sure about the current situation. However, there are currently American Girl fashion shows. Now, it’s okay to have kiddie fashion shows: I’m sure the majority of girls involved, on both ends, are having a fun time. But I thought American Girl was supposed to foster the notion that there’s more to life than how one looks :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (then again, the proceeds apparently go to charity. So that leads me to believe that Pleasant et al. are doing it either for charity or because they were asked for it (as opposed to created demand.) Still, _AG_.) ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/77 "2003-09-23T01:19:46Z")
Snoopy, quite whining. Really. You’re speaking about a program that, in the scheme of American higher education, is minuscule. The total “educational and general expenditures” of public and private degree-granting institutions in 1995-96 was, acording to the U.S. education department, about $150 billion. So think about it for just a minute - how could a $40 million-a-year program be the “No. 1” for women? Assuming that they literally mean that they’re the largest - despite my snarky suspicion that “No. 1” in fact means merely that the most recognizable - it would in no small part be because very few non-athletic scholarship programs discriminate on the basis of gender. Then we have to consider that this is an independent scholarship foundation, when most scholarships are awarded to, and usually by, a particular institution. For example, I’ll guarantee you that 100% of the scholarships granted at Barnard College (of Columbia University) are awarded to women. Likewise for Mills, Spellman, and other women’s colleges - which dwarf the number of men-only colleges (in fact, as I recall there are a mere five left in the United States). Do women in fact get fewer scholarships than men? Doubtful, considering that women outnumber men in higher education (at least 56% of undergraduates are now women). So we’re talking a single, peculiar program that gets a lot of press because of the archaic (and somewhat desparately, if not altogether convincingly, “modernized”) competition accompanying it. This is what you’re complaining about? Get real. ---
**Author:** ![Lisa-go-Blind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Lisa-go-Blind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lisa-go-Blind)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/78 "2003-09-23T01:29:07Z")
What is the point of giving scholarships if so many of the contestants (such as the previously mentioned cello-playing MD) have already graduated? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/79 "2003-09-23T01:58:19Z")
Graduate from school with a $40,000 student debt, Lisa, and you will know the value of a post-grad grant. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922/80 "2003-09-23T02:26:55Z")
I think she can complain about whatever she wants, OXY. If it’s number one or number 100, you’re still dealing with a “scholarship” program that requires its participants to parade around in a bathing suit. Which, of course, has jack-shit to do with scholasitic aptitude or actual talent. MUFFIN is right: It’s a cattle call, and it will always be a cattle call as long as there is any part of the scoring that is based in any way on how the woman looks in her skivvies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-annual-miss-america-rant/202922.md?page=5)