# My apologies to Sweet Willy and MEBuckner **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2002, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652 "2002-04-09T12:48:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/81 "2002-04-10T17:03:23Z")
Since I doubt you’re implying that Sweet Willy is one of the First Ones, I’ll just say thank you and extend the hands of friendship to you. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/82 "2002-04-10T17:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > \*\*If I recall correctly, in one of Zev or Chaim’s threads, the point was made that you don’t have to believe in God to be a good practicing Jew. You just have to follow his laws. All of them. > > Must you affirm you believe in God to convert, or just swear to follow his laws?\*\* Loath as I am to disagree with **Zev** , since one of the laws in question is “I am the Lord, thy God. Thou shall have no other God before me.” I’d say that you can’t follow His laws without a belief in him. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/83 "2002-04-10T17:23:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > **I leave it to you to decide who the ant is.** :: Waves hands wildly :: OOh! Oh! I know! I KNOW! The ant’s **Doc Cathode** , right? Because a disgusting slime mold spore like SweatWilly isn’t anywhere near as evolved as an ant! Right? :: looks slyly at **Esprix** :: Thought you’d slip a trick question by ol’ Fenris, right? But I’m too clever for ya! Fenris ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/84 "2002-04-10T17:36:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > > :: Waves hands wildly :: > > OOh! Oh! I know! I KNOW! > > The ant’s **Doc Cathode** , right? Because a disgusting slime mold spore like SweatWilly isn’t anywhere near as evolved as an ant! Right? > > :: looks slyly at **Esprix** :: > > Thought you’d slip a trick question by ol’ Fenris, right? But I’m too clever for ya! > > Fenris \*\* I feel a little like a Zen student ``` student:Master, What is enlightenment? master:I smell miso cooking. ``` DocCathode:What was my error? Esprix:Remember the parable of G’kar and the ant. Fenris: Do not be to sure of the ant’s secret identity. I know the answer to my question is in there somewhere. Yes, it is like a Zen parable… only over the internet…with a laugh track. ---
**Author:** ![Wisest\_Novel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wisest_novel/32/13329_2.png) [@Wisest\_Novel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wisest_Novel)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/85 "2002-04-10T17:41:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **Loath as I am to disagree with Zev, since one of the laws in question is “I am the Lord, thy God. Thou shall have no other God before me.” I’d say that you can’t follow His laws without a belief in him.** **Fenris** , I think you’ll be relieved to know that you can de-loath, then. You don’t seem to be disagreeing. You may have missed the part of his response to **E-Sabbath** below. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt_ > Not quite. Belief in God is one of the articles of faith. That does not mean however, that you cannot ask questions. But in the end, one must accept that God exists. Unless _I_ missed something. Then you can feel free to loathe me. Or just save it for more deserving targets. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/86 "2002-04-10T17:49:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wisest Novel \* > \*\*\*\*Then you can feel free to loathe me. Or just save it for more deserving targets. \*\* What if I loathe you for just a few minutes for being correct. I was just quibbling with the “not quite” part of the answer. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/87 "2002-04-10T18:09:19Z")
Fenris, and anyone else who is interested… It has always been my take on Judaism that one of it’s larger mistakes if encouraging knowledge and asking questions. Encouraging free thought. It seems to me that many Jewish people who are not devout have asked questions and not found the answers they were looking for in their faith. So sometimes, the questioning and such leads to non-belief or non-acceptance. It may be one of the larger reasons that Jewry is shrinking. IMO, free thought in a religion, leads to rejection of religion eventually. Most successful religions like Catholicism do not encourage free thought at all, and they have a giant following. just my .02 worth. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/88 "2002-04-10T18:27:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\* > My attempt to out mad-scientist Hiryuu worked like a charm. To have the disciple of Phi call me an insane pseudo-scientist was priceless. > \*\* Doc Cathode, Ya want me to send the Mirrorshades out? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/89 "2002-04-10T18:29:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Most successful religions like Catholicism do not encourage free thought at all, and they have a giant following Given the huge number of “recovering Catholics” on this board (and the number of Jesuits I have encountered in my life), I suggest that the claim that Catholicism does not encourage free thought is overbroad and probably in error. (Certainly, there are people in Rome and Lincoln, NE who discourage thinking, but it is not an attribute of the church.) ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/90 "2002-04-10T18:40:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **DocCathode** _ > > Yes, it is like a Zen parable… only over the internet…with a laugh track. Any thread with **Fenris** in it has a laugh track. Now snatch this vB code from my hand, e-Grasshopper… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/91 "2002-04-10T19:03:07Z")
Now, people, let’s be fair. I’m just trying to help Sweet Willy achieve his goal, of being jewish. If his mother converts, can he then be jewish? Can you believe in God but not worship him save by keeping his laws? Would either of these be acceptable to Willy? … ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/92 "2002-04-10T20:10:18Z")
Well, somewhere long the way he’d have to undergo circumcision, turning Willy into willy. But it seemed clear to me that his purpose was to antagonize Jews, not understand them. Meantime, I’m waiting for him to say something funny and shift gears away from this “awww, now why would you go and say a thing like that to widdle ol’ innocent _me_” jag. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/93 "2002-04-10T20:41:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GaWd \* > \*\*Fenris, and anyone else who is interested… > > It has always been my take on Judaism that one of it’s larger mistakes if encouraging knowledge and asking questions. Encouraging free thought. > > It seems to me that many Jewish people who are not devout have asked questions and not found the answers they were looking for in their faith. So sometimes, the questioning and such leads to non-belief or non-acceptance. It may be one of the larger reasons that Jewry is shrinking. > > IMO, free thought in a religion, leads to rejection of religion eventually. Most successful religions like Catholicism do not encourage free thought at all, and they have a giant following. > > just my .02 worth. > > Sam \*\* Maybe as a religion, but as an ethnic group we’ll keep spreading as long as fucking is fun. My gramma was a Catholic Jew. Howzat? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/94 "2002-04-10T22:07:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, somewhere long the way he’d have to undergo circumcision, turning Willy into willy. For the record, I am a circumcised gentile. (remembering something about Jewish tradition affecting gentiles genitals) ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/95 "2002-04-10T22:11:56Z")
> [@](#): > > . But it seemed clear to me that his purpose was to antagonize Jews, not understand them. **Bryan,** What can you tell us about the antagonist / protagonist relationship in human cultures? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/96 "2002-04-10T22:26:15Z")
I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned that oh-so-gentle tradition in Prortugal long ago where the Jews were forced to convert. Some, admittedly, did convert and come to believe but many went through the motions to survive. Now, the ones who converted and believed, one guess how the rest of Portuguese society considered them. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/97 "2002-04-10T22:28:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* What can you tell us about the antagonist / protagonist relationship in human cultures? \*\* **an·tag·o·nist** [an tággnist] (plural an·tag·o·nists) noun 1. opponent: somebody or something opposing or in conflict with another several antagonists locked in a power struggle 2. ARTS character in conflict with hero: a major character in a book, play, or movie whose values or behavior are in conflict with those of the protagonist or hero 3. PHARMACOLOGY neutralizing agent: a substance, often a drug, that nullifies the effect another substance has on the body 4. PHYSIOLOGY opposing muscle: a muscle that acts with and limits the action of another muscle **pro·tag·o·nist** [pr tággnist] (plural pro·tag·o·nists) noun 5. LITERATURE main character: the most important character in a novel, play, story, or other literary work 6. HISTORY main character in ancient Greek drama: the first actor who interacted with the chorus in ancient Greek drama 7. leading figure: a main participant in an event, for example, a contest or dispute two protagonists in a long-running dispute 8. supporter: an important or influential supporter or advocate of something such as a political or social issue an early protagonist of educational reform [Late 17th century. From Greek protagnists “actor who plays the chief part,” from agnistes “actor, competitor,” from agn “contest” (see agony ).] pro·tag·o·nism noun Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/98 "2002-04-10T22:53:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > **Bryan,** What can you tell us about the antagonist / protagonist relationship in human cultures? \*\* I can tell you that lame-ass attempts at Socratic irony are only amusing for a short time. Take some hemlock, already. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/99 "2002-04-10T23:04:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > For the record, I am a circumcised gentile. (remembering something about Jewish tradition affecting gentiles genitals) \*\* Umm, you were not “brissed”, you were circumcised. Some people have had trouble maintaining hygeine down there, so doctors adopted it as a “cleanliness” measure, not as a measure of culture. It is my covenant with God. To you, it’s just a cut penis. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652/100 "2002-04-10T23:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Bryan Ekers** _ > > Meantime, I’m waiting for him to say something funny and shift gears away from this “awww, now why would you go and say a thing like that to widdle ol’ innocent _me_” jag. He’s **WildestBill** ’s sockpuppet? :eek: Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-apologies-to-sweet-willy-and-mebuckner/102652.md?page=6)