# My argument for why Standard American English really is "no accent" - **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101 "2011-08-09T17:14:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/81 "2011-08-10T15:36:48Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > - And lastly, lots of singing that “sounds American” does _not_, in fact, sound like Standard American speech. As **Baffle** and I noted above, American rock and pop singers tend to de-rhotacize (“fi-uh” vs. “fi-er”). A great example of a singer who doesn’t drop his Rs off is the lead singer for REO Speedwagon (Kevin Cronin?). [Keep On Loving You](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-mw1HGJjdA) is the best example I can think of, and since I was a kid I always wondered why he was over-emphasizing his Rs, even though he’s really not, he’s just pronouncing them when most singers I was hearing didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/82 "2011-08-10T15:41:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And I think one of the big issues here is a problem of perception. To a large extent, you _perceive_ “singing” accents to be the same as some (hypothesized) SAE accent. **But to the extent that there _is_ an SAE accent, the “singing accent” _isn’t actually the same_**. You perceive them as being the same because of certain assumptions you are making. Agree strongly with the bolded. I don’t agree with throwing a blanket over so many pop/rock and declaring that they all sing with the same accent. Even among top-selling American pop/rock artists – not niche artists – there is much more variation than commonality IMHO. Texan Don Henley does not have the same accent as Michigander Glenn Frey when singing. Floridian Tom Petty and Delawarean George Thorogood do not sing in a “standard” midwestern American accent. Neither did Buddy Holly (Texas panhandle) or Dan Baird of the Georgia Satellites (Athens, GA). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/83 "2011-08-10T15:57:00Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Even among top-selling American pop/rock artists – not niche artists – there is much more variation than commonality IMHO. This is all very true. I think that there are so many fallacious assumptions in the OP’s argument that it’s difficult to address every single one of them at the same time. In addressing Fallacious Assumption X or Fallacious Conclusion Y, we’re having to gloss over Fallacious Assumptions A, B, and C. At the very least these are true – 1. There isn’t really a Standard American English accent. 2. There isn’t really a universal “singing in English” accent. 3. To the extent that you can come up with some kind of dominant SAE accent or dominant “singing in English” accent, they’re not the same accent. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/84 "2011-08-10T16:00:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is all very true. I think that there are so many fallacious assumptions in the OP’s argument that it’s difficult to address every single one of them at the same time. In addressing Fallacious Assumption X or Fallacious Conclusion Y, we’re having to gloss over Fallacious Assumptions A, B, and C. > > At the very least these are true – > > 1. There isn’t really a Standard American English accent. > 2. There isn’t really a universal “singing in English” accent. > 3. To the extent that you can come up with some kind of dominant SAE accent or dominant “singing in English” accent, they’re not the same accent. But other than that, she totally nailed it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/85 "2011-08-10T16:22:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is all very true. I think that there are so many fallacious assumptions in the OP’s argument that it’s difficult to address every single one of them at the same time. In addressing Fallacious Assumption X or Fallacious Conclusion Y, we’re having to gloss over Fallacious Assumptions A, B, and C. > > At the very least these are true – > > 1. There isn’t really a Standard American English accent. > 2. There isn’t really a universal “singing in English” accent. > 3. To the extent that you can come up with some kind of dominant SAE accent or dominant “singing in English” accent, they’re not the same accent. Exactly. > [@Crotalus](#): > > But other than that, she totally nailed it, right? Totally. Well, except for the part about SAE (however we define it) being “bland” and featureless. That’s also completely wrong. It almost falls into the category of “not even wrong, just nonsensical”. But beyond that, yep, I think she’s got it. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/86 "2011-08-10T17:30:13Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Also … “Strawberry Fields” … “…for-_evah_!”. Isn’t that Lennon doing New York Jewish? Oh, wait…he didn’t move to the Upper West Side until a few years after this song… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/87 "2011-08-10T17:32:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > A great example of a singer who doesn’t drop his Rs off is the lead singer for REO Speedwagon (Kevin Cronin?). [Keep On Loving You](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-mw1HGJjdA) is the best example I can think of, and since I was a kid I always wondered why he was over-emphasizing his Rs, even though he’s really not, he’s just pronouncing them when most singers I was hearing didn’t. He’s from Chicago, and his accent is very reflective of that…we pronounce our Rs very distinctly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/88 "2011-08-10T17:38:02Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Very, very wrong. I don’t have time to give you cites right now, but I might get to it later – or you can just trust me that the Beatles, circa 1960-63, were huge devotees of Carl Perkins, the Everly Brothers, the Shirelles, Roy Orbison, Chuck Berry… You get the picture. They could have sung like The Jam/XTC/The Clash, but they chose not to. > > ETA: To hear the Beatles singing with British accents, try “You Know My Name, Look Up the Number”, where their model was not American rock/rhythm-and-blues/country/soul artists, but rather British comedian Spike Milligan. I think Paul McCartney started sounding more English (while singing) as he became older…his accent is much more noticeable now than it was in those early days when they were more heavily influenced by American Rock & Roll. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/89 "2011-08-10T17:44:19Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I think Paul McCartney started sounding more English (while singing) as he became older…his accent is much more noticeable now than it was in those early days when they were more heavily influenced by American Rock & Roll. True. Even in his earlier songs less influenced by US artists, like _Eleanor Rigby_, he sounds a bit more English than in, say, _Kansas City/Hey Hey Hey_. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/90 "2011-08-10T18:02:09Z")
I’m going to be honest, I’ve never heard the American accent that the Beatles supposedly sang in. It’s always sounded like a Scouse accent to me. What songs do people have in mind when they say they sang like Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/91 "2011-08-10T18:17:22Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > True. Even in his earlier songs less influenced by US artists, like _Eleanor Rigby_, he sounds a bit more English than in, say, _Kansas City/Hey Hey Hey_. Oh, yes, good point…his accent is quite distinct in Eleanor Rigby and other songs from that era (Penny Lane, for instance, which was mentioned upthread). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/92 "2011-08-11T03:30:42Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I’m going to be honest, I’ve never heard the American accent that the Beatles supposedly sang in. It’s always sounded like a Scouse accent to me. What songs do people have in mind when they say they sang like Americans? Keeping in mind the caveats others have mentioned in this thread (there’s more than one “American accent”, Americans may tend to hear the “accent” we’re talking about as American more than some others might, etc., etc.), the answer is: “by common consent, around 80% of their songs – maybe 95% of their songs up to about 1965, perhaps 60% of the songs after 1965”. They were asked about this at various press conferences early in their career (1963 and 1964), both in England and in the US. Most Americans found their speaking voices to sound much more British (and, yes, Liverpudlian) than their singing voices. As I mentioned before, this was due mainly to their love of Elvis, Carl Perkins, Buddy Holly, etc., artists whose styles served as models of sorts, especially in those earlier albums. You might have a more sensitive ear to subtler, semi-Americanized versions of a Scouse accent, but many people don’t detect clear-cut, definitive British accents in most British rock music, let alone _regional_ British accents – though there are, as others have mentioned, many, many exceptions (Elvis Costello, the Jam, much of the Kinks…) Even the early Beatles couldn’t help but change their “uh’s” (as in “cut”) to "u’s (as in “put”) when singing, a clearly Scouse trait, as well parodied by Neil Innes in the Rutles compositions “Love Life” (prounounced Luve Life) and “I Must Be in Love” (I Muste Be In Luve). Perhaps it’s this one vowel that you pick up on in Beatles songs, and allows you to identify them as Liverpudlians more readily than most listeners do. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/93 "2011-08-25T16:43:44Z")
One other question: do people with very strong/thick kinds of accents ever find SAE or Received pronounciation unintelligible or in any way a strain to understand? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/94 "2011-08-25T18:42:19Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > One other question: do people with very strong/thick kinds of accents ever find SAE or Received pronounciation unintelligible or in any way a strain to understand? Not as a general rule, no. We do easily identify a speaker of SAE as American, though. Of course, we’re exposed to SAE on a fairly regular basis through the media. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/95 "2011-08-25T18:48:47Z")
When I hear people sing, even people who speak with an SAE accent, I don’t hear them sounding like someone speaking SAE. I hear them sounding like they’re singing. Just because singing voices sound normal to me, and spoken SAE sounds normal to me, doesn’t mean that they sound the same. ---
**Author:** ![nicole1912](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@nicole1912](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicole1912)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/96 "2011-08-25T19:05:42Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > One other question: do people with very strong/thick kinds of accents ever find SAE or Received pronounciation unintelligible or in any way a strain to understand? I have a southern English accent and even I can find pure RP occasionally hard to understand, if I’m thinking of the right thing - it’s the accent the old BBC newsreaders used to have, that very rich aristocratic type of English, isn’t it? How the Queen used to talk in her first few Queen’s speeches? Yeah, can be hard to understand - like any strong accent. Just because it’s one that’s been standardised (often, if not always, for socio-political reasons - I don’t think you usually find that the accent that becomes dominant in a country is one associated with poor regions or lower social classes, for instance) doesn’t make an accent any less strong to those who don’t share it. There is no such thing as an inherently neutral accent. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/97 "2011-08-25T20:04:57Z")
I’m actually struggling to think of the masses of bands from outisde the US that apparently sing in an American accent. I can think of many bands putting on an accent, from Zep to the Jesus and Mary Chain, but those that lessen their accent and end up sounding American? I can’t think of any. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/98 "2011-08-25T20:24:36Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > One other question: do people with very strong/thick kinds of accents ever find SAE or Received pronounciation unintelligible or in any way a strain to understand? Simple answer: Yes. But, what do you mean by “very strong/thick kinds of accents”? It seems to me that you mean accents that you have difficulty understanding, and you think that the difficulty goes only in one direction. After reading the posts in this thread, do you still think that there’s a form of American English that is “neutral”? Also, I’m wondering: How many languages can you speak? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/99 "2011-08-25T20:28:56Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > One other question: do people with very strong/thick kinds of accents ever find SAE or Received pronounciation unintelligible or in any way a strain to understand? Of course they do. I have done consulting in Australia and have been asked to repeat myself or slow down. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101/100 "2011-08-25T21:10:54Z")
I guess I’m surprised to be in the minority here. I suppose I did live in the US for three years - maybe that makes a difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-argument-for-why-standard-american-english-really-is-no-accent/592101.md?page=6)