# My best argument for the non-existence of God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615 "2005-07-08T17:43:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/81 "2005-07-11T15:47:40Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Now, how is this answer different, in explanatory content, than a similar answer given in a world where god is imaginary. > > In other words, in a world where god doesn’t exist men would give similar answers. They might. They might not. It still proves nothing about the existence or nonexistence of God; moreover, it doesn’t even suggest anything about the existence or non-existence of God, other than “It’s impossible to prove one way or the other based on this scenario.” ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/82 "2005-07-11T15:47:41Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > That’s not the debate. I know. However, I have restricted myself from all but asking questions, you might recall. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/83 "2005-07-11T15:50:04Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I know. However, I have restricted myself from all but asking questions, you might recall. … and broken that restriction at least once, as I recall. But okay, if you’re going to ask questions, feel free to ask a relevant one. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/84 "2005-07-11T15:51:01Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I provided him with a plausible answer. Exactly. Look up the word plausible and you’ll see why you’re consistent with my argument. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/85 "2005-07-11T15:51:38Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > … and broken that restriction at least once, as I recall. Does forgeting once invalidate the idea? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/86 "2005-07-11T15:52:57Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Exactly. > > Look up the word plausible and you’ll see why you’re consistent with my argument. I’ll be happy to verify that as soon as you present an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/87 "2005-07-11T15:54:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The conclusion I came to was about the nature of the so called holy books and certain doctrines beings taught. It isn’t nessecary to dismiss every concept of God simply because certain concepts don’t make sense. > All religions and the people in them struggle in their own imperfect way to understand God. None have a complete understanding. Some twist it so much that they use their beliefs to justify some of the horrible crap they do. Others find real growth and express great kindness and generosity. It is a worthy struggle. My question was why God doesn’t do anything. Anything at all. Stopping 9/11 would have been nice, or showing up in Jerusalem to get the Israelis and Palestinians to live together like brothers and sisters, but anything would do. If this being is so vast and all powerful, it stands to reason that there should be some objective sign of its existence in the world. Seriously I would expect a benevolent deity to present its codes for life and worship and morality in something a little more spectacular than books which were obviously written by human beings. Also an admonition for people to stop killing each other in God’s name. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/88 "2005-07-11T15:54:18Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. You are depending on the assertion that the universe is imperfect. How can you say otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/89 "2005-07-11T15:55:46Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Does forgeting once invalidate the idea? Not at all. Just trying to pre-empt any assertions of piety you might make. As for how I can say otherwise - It’s his premise the universe is imperfect. I do not accept that as a given. If he wishes to proceed to attempt to convince me, he must convince me, first, of his premise. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/90 "2005-07-11T15:59:12Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > t’s his premise the universe is imperfect. I do not accept that as a given. If he wishes to proceed to attempt to convince me, he must convince me, first, of his premise. I don’t understand this reasoning. It would seem that everyone acknowledges that the universe exists. Also, that there are problems in existence. This seems to go beyond those claims. How is he the one with something to prove? ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/91 "2005-07-11T16:02:57Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > 😃 Nor is there evidence to the contrary. Combining those two facts, if one subscribes to Occam’s Razor, then one might lean towards non-existance, but it’s hardly a “proof”, now, is it? Nor has there been any evidence for/against the invisible dragon I have in my garage (thanks Carl Sagan - _The Demon Haunted World_, [quoted here] ([http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/st-drag.html](http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/st-drag.html))) “You’re inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true.” I would add: More “tests” have been performed seeking God’s existence than Sagan’s Dragon (like the rhyme?). More discussions, more people, for more years than can be counted. Surely the lack of _any_ positive test after so much scrutiny places God’s existence on the “myth busted” pile. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/92 "2005-07-11T16:03:50Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I don’t understand this reasoning. It would seem that everyone acknowledges that the universe exists. Also, that there are problems in existence. This seems to go beyond those claims. How is he the one with something to prove? Neither you, nor I, nor any human being has the bird’s eye view necessary to fully evaluate the things you describe as problems. They may be necessary to the perfect design. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/93 "2005-07-11T16:06:23Z")
> [@Nature's Call](#): > > Nor has there been any evidence for/against the invisible dragon I have in my garage (thanks Carl Sagan - _The Demon Haunted World_, > [quoted here] > ([http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/st-drag.html](http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/st-drag.html))) > > “You’re inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true.” I never said that the inability to disprove God’s existence suggested it was true. Actually, it seems like you’re suggesting just that, about the reverse hypothesis - the inability of believers to negate the hypothesis that God does not exist doesn’t make IT true, either. > [@](#): > > I would add: More “tests” have been performed seeking God’s existence than Sagan’s Dragon (like the rhyme?). More discussions, more people, for more years than can be counted. > > Surely the lack of _any_ positive test after so much scrutiny places God’s existence on the “myth busted” pile. A thing is only lost until you find it. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/94 "2005-07-11T16:07:59Z")
If people are said to be able to imagine a perfect being then it follows that they are the judges of what is perfect and imperfect. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/95 "2005-07-11T16:12:38Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > If people are said to be able to imagine a perfect being then it follows that they are the judges of what is perfect and imperfect. _snrk_ Okay, so many problems with that I don’t know where to begin. First, your conclusion doesn’t follow from the premise, and we’ll leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/96 "2005-07-11T16:13:55Z")
> [@Nature's Call](#): > > the invisible dragon I have in my garage (thanks Carl Sagan yay. My pink elephant has a friend. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/97 "2005-07-11T16:21:55Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > your conclusion doesn’t follow from the premise So you believe that we can imagine a thing with a quality without being capable of judging that quality? Can you imagine a “happy girl” if you aren’t the judge of whether the girl is happy or not? I think you just claim things aren’t logical when you don’t like the conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/98 "2005-07-11T16:23:34Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > The OP is not even expressed in the form of a logical syllogism. Why would you then focus on the definition of ‘argument’ as a logical formation and apply it to something which is only vaguely reminiscent of scholarly logic? > > If a word can mean A, B, or C and a person uses it in sense A, it doesn’t make sense to inappropriately construe it as C and base a criticism on that interpretation. > > Now instead of fabricating nits to pick, show me an instance where an explanation of worldly events referencing God would be different in a world where god was merely imagined. > > Question: Why did God allow the tsunami to happen? (Answer this in terms of the current God-fearing world.) I based my criticism on that definition because your “argument” was presented in a form that suggested you were making a logical argument. I can see why you would want to pretend otherwise now, because it is obvious that it was an invalid argument. Also, you seem to assume that Merriam-Webster presents its definitions in descending order of correctness or importance, and my picking of definition 3 was arbitrary or stupid. Think again. Here is definition 1 from the same source: _1 obsolete : an outward sign_ . I don’t think they put the best definitions first. I don’t know how they arrange them. When using a dictionary to deal with a word that has several definitions, we have to pick the one that seems best suited to the circumstances. I did. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/99 "2005-07-11T16:36:02Z")
> [@Tim Staab](#): > > I based my criticism on that definition because your “argument” was presented in a form that suggested you were making a logical argument. I can see why you would want to pretend otherwise now, because it is obvious that it was an invalid argument. The OP is still there for everyone to see. Everyone is free to judge what it is. Now, again, stop nitpicking and argue for or against the proposition that people in a god-world would explain god’s nature and worldly events in the same way as a nongod-world. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615/100 "2005-07-11T16:40:25Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > So you believe that we can imagine a thing with a quality without being capable of judging that quality? Sure. Think of it the same way you might think about infinity. It’s a concept, not a quantifiable thing. To see how a believer thinks about God’s perfection, you need to accept, strictly for the sake of argument, some of the believer’s assumptions. These might include: we know God is perfect because scripture tells us so, we don’t know everything God knows, and we’re not sure exactly what He’s trying to do. So, is this an imperfect universe? We don’t know. God might think it’s just dandy. Proving that there are things in the universe that are unpleasant to us doesn’t prove or even suggest the non-existence of a perfect creator. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-best-argument-for-the-non-existence-of-god/311615.md?page=6)