# My birth certificate bond is worth billions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 19, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363 "2015-05-19T14:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/41 "2015-05-19T22:19:58Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > … them putting drops of their blood on…) Does Canada have rules about the distribution of dangerous fluids and/or human body parts? Do they actually mail blood? This could get interesting… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/42 "2015-05-19T23:01:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > created extra dollars by fiat. [Now you’ve done it](http://www.amazon.com/Fiat-Money-Conspiracy-Behind-It/dp/1438997027); those clowns will be here lickety-split if you [say it twice more](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetlejuice). ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/43 "2015-05-19T23:07:07Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Rational Wiki has a long list of [Freeman successes](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Freeman_successes) in court. I think that calling the list “comprehensive” would be more fitting. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/44 "2015-05-19T23:14:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Rational Wiki has a long list of [Freeman successes](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Freeman_successes) in court. I love this: > [@](#): > > The accurate responses to most Freeman arguments are “this claim is false”, “this is not how the law works”, “this is not what these words mean at all” or “this is completely made-up”. > > The real problem is that Freemen don’t seem to understand how coherent argument works on any level. They refuse to believe a loss in court is not, in fact, a win — they put up illegally-filmed court videos on YouTube of them getting thrown out or penalised, and claim these as clear wins. Even if they are quite unambiguously convicted, fined and/or jailed, they claim moral victory. **It’s like four-dimensional pigeon chess.** 😃 Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/45 "2015-05-19T23:20:27Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > This came up in a previous thread. > > A Canadian judge who had to deal with a FOTL situation wrote a delightful decision about it. You might not think that reading a long judicial finding could be amusing but it’s just awesome, I recommend taking some time to read the whole thing. > > [2012 ABQB 571 (CanLII) | Meads v. Meads | CanLII](http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html) I came here to post this too. Justice Rooke, in dealing with this FOTL case (Meads v Meads, a divorce settlement case), recognized that this FOTL assnuttery needed to be refuted once and for all, so he took it upon himself to make a massive study of the subject, well beyond the circumstances of the immediate case at hand. He wrote all of this into his decision, which covers the territory like a Master’s Dissertation. Definitely a recommended (and entertaining) read for anyone interested, and especially for lawyers and judges. AIUI, this decision made quite a splash, not only throughout Canadian jurisprudence circles, but in American jurisprudence circles as well. **Northern Piper** , do you cite this in your lectures? Do you recommend it as Required Reading for all lawyers and judges who might deal with this stuff? For American lawyers and judges too? ETA: Here are two articles I found, discussing or summarizing Rooke’s decision: [_Meads v. Meads_, the Vexatious Litigants Case](http://www.slaw.ca/2012/10/01/meads-v-meads-the-vexatious-litigants-case/) [The Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument (OPCA) Litigant Case](http://ablawg.ca/2012/10/30/the-organized-pseudolegal-commercial-argument-opca-litigant-case/) ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/46 "2015-05-19T23:21:45Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > God’s signature is fire, and you can’t bring fire into court. Even an [nitpick]admiralty[/nitpick] court. That’s the devil’s signature that is fire, God’s signature is red, white and blue. That’s why our money, and no other country’s money, says “In God We Trust.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/47 "2015-05-19T23:54:01Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > That’s the devil’s signature that is fire, God’s signature is red, white and blue. That’s why our money, and no other country’s money, says “In God We Trust.” Then how do you explain the burning bush, huh? I run rings around you logically. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/48 "2015-05-20T02:57:22Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Part of the problem with these people is that they’re so totally wrong that you don’t even know where to start refuting what they say. Yes. I’ve never heard of “Freemen” but I guarantee you my dad would eat this shit up. Whenever we get together (maybe twice a year) he starts spewing conspiracy theories at me, and when I don’t know what the hell he’s talking about, it’s only evidence of my ignorance and the evil liberal media. I can’t argue with the man, because we live in alternate realities, or something. Sigh. So much fun, my dad. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/49 "2015-05-20T03:26:10Z")
> [@](#): > > When your birth certificate was monetized and converted into a UNITED STATES Government Bond shortly after your birth by your Mother, your net worth became unlimited, into Billions of Dollars, without your, nor your Mother’s, and Father’s, knowledge. Maybe without Dad or I knowing. But I think Mom is in on it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/50 "2015-05-20T03:37:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This is the real craziness of the Freemen. They think the United States has been hijacked by fascists, but if you just explain patiently to the cops and judges what the law really is, the fascists are powerless and will leave you alone. Except in real life fascist judges and cops don’t give a shit what the law says, they arrest you and stick you in prison whenever they feel like it, because THEY ARE FASCISTS. They don’t care what the law says, their authority comes not from the law but out of the barrel of a gun. That’s where the real craziness comes from. It would be one thing if these nuts just refused to recognize the authority of the American legal system. It wouldn’t work in the real world because the American legal system is backed up by a lot more power than any group of nuts is capable of defying. But at least their beliefs would be logically consistent. But these nuts are constantly citing various laws in support of their beliefs. They seem to believe that the American legal system is telling them that they don’t have to accept the authority of the American legal system. How can you win that argument? If you prove your case then you’ve destroyed the means you used to win it. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/51 "2015-05-20T03:53:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s where the real craziness comes from. It would be one thing if these nuts just refused to recognize the authority of the American legal system. It wouldn’t work in the real world because the American legal system is backed up by a lot more power than any group of nuts is capable of defying. But at least their beliefs would be logically consistent. > > But these nuts are constantly citing various laws in support of their beliefs. They seem to believe that the American legal system is telling them that they don’t have to accept the authority of the American legal system. How can you win that argument? If you prove your case then you’ve destroyed the means you used to win it. In my opinion, the very nuttiest part is how they regard the UCC as a magical, near-divine construct. I would love to know how that got started. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/52 "2015-05-20T03:59:17Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > The more I read about Freemen, the more I think this is just an elaborate joke conjured up by some pranksters to see how many gullible idiots could swallow such obvious drivel. Kind of. It’s more like an elaborate joke constructed in such fashion as to extract money from suckers. One section in Meads vs. Meads is on “gurus”. These are the people who sell these nutters pamphlets and books and tickets to hear speakers telling them what they want to hear. The gurus have a financial incentive for keeping the crazy train on track. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/53 "2015-05-20T06:36:03Z")
OP you ask for help debunking. You need to adopt the same strategy as for astrologers, dowsers & psychics. They typically want to, and will, talk forever about how it is all supposed to work. What they won’t and can’t do is what they say they can. Debating such people about the details of why what they say is untrue or won’t work is pointless. They will just drown you in neverending whargarble. You need to say this, and stick to it. “I don’t believe any of this. What can you actually, practically DO to test whether what you say is effective? What would constitute success or failure in that test?” The response will probably be more endless whargarble about how effective what they are saying is. To which you should just repeat your first question. If you want to have more fun, help them out a bit; if they say they can get out of criminal charges using their mad Freeman skilz, invite them to demonstrate by speeding past a speed trap. Tell them if they can get out of the ticket using their techniques, you’ll pay the fine. If they say they can get free stuff from shops by quoting a supa-sekrit codenumber, offer to meet them at the shops for a demonstration tomorrow at 10am. Watch them run away, then point and laugh at them. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/54 "2015-05-20T06:59:08Z")
I thought a birth certificate means you are a chattel slave? At least that is what the FMOTL nut in a radio interview claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/55 "2015-05-20T08:15:47Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > If you want to have more fun, help them out a bit; if they say they can get out of criminal charges using their mad Freeman skilz, invite them to demonstrate by speeding past a speed trap. **Tell them if they can get out of the ticket using their techniques, you’ll pay the fine.** If they say they can get free stuff from shops by quoting a supa-sekrit codenumber, offer to meet them at the shops for a demonstration tomorrow at 10am. Can’t go wrong with a bet like that! ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/56 "2015-05-20T09:16:49Z")
This nuttyness seems to be confined to the US of A. Is anyone aware of people in other countries taking it up? ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/57 "2015-05-20T09:36:37Z")
I understand there are Canadian FotL - probably due to proximity. But I also know there have been a few cases in New Zealand, Australia and the UK. These are countries that have an entirely different history and legal system, and do not have some of the key concepts - like a Social Security Number. How anybody can justify this, I have absolutely no idea. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/58 "2015-05-20T10:15:59Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > I understand there are Canadian FotL - probably due to proximity. > > But I also know there have been a few cases in New Zealand, Australia and the UK. These are countries that have an entirely different history and legal system, and do not have some of the key concepts - like a Social Security Number. > > How anybody can justify this, I have absolutely no idea. Reptilians. It’s lizards all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/59 "2015-05-20T10:24:30Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > I understand there are Canadian FotL - probably due to proximity. > > But I also know there have been a few cases in New Zealand, Australia and the UK. These are countries that have an entirely different history and legal system, and do not have some of the key concepts - like a Social Security Number. > > How anybody can justify this, I have absolutely no idea. The gurus are sending out “missionaries”, I’ve heard them on talk radio in the Caribbean. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363/60 "2015-05-20T11:39:37Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > I understand there are Canadian FotL - probably due to proximity. > > But I also know there have been a few cases in New Zealand, Australia and the UK. These are countries that have an entirely different history and legal system, and do not have some of the key concepts - like a Social Security Number. > > How anybody can justify this, I have absolutely no idea. There are certainly cases in the UK - see **running coach’s** list of [freeman successes](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Freeman_successes) (!) up thread. I guess the common factor is the common law system the US, NZ, UK, and Canada share. Does anyone know of Freemen in a non-common law jurisdiction? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-birth-certificate-bond-is-worth-billions/720363.md?page=4)