# My brother was arrested for solicitation **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 16, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995 "2003-09-16T20:08:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bokap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9adbd/32.png) [@bokap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bokap)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/1 "2003-09-16T20:08:47Z")
My brother was arrested for solicitation of a prostitute in New York City. The prostitute was an undercover officer. My brother spent the night in jail and the police kept his car. He has a lawyer and was told the police will keep his car as evidence and that he may not get his car back even if the charges are dropped. Is this possible that my brother can lose his car over this. It is a new car. He has had it for not quite 1 year, worth probably $25 thousand. My brother is worried sick over this. He has no money. He is renting a car now for $1000 a month. If the police keep the car what would happen to him if he quit making payments. It is his first offense and has never been in any trouble before. Thanks for any info. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/2 "2003-09-16T20:16:56Z")
With him making payments still on the car, that is probably going to be the reason he gets to keep it, in particular if he has quite a bit he still owes on it. Generally cops only go for cars that have no lien on them. Keep us apprised on how it goes. JZ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/3 "2003-09-16T20:24:36Z")
The car may be subject to civil forfeiture, even if it has a lien on it. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Lu\_abu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@An\_Lu\_abu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Lu_abu)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/4 "2003-09-16T21:28:44Z")
There are some really stupid laws in this world. Not that I have ever solicited a prostitute though (they have solicited me! but I was in Amsterdam, walking with my g/f so that doesn’t count). But it is legal in many parts of the world, or at least tolerated. This is not about judgement of course. What worries me is the proportionality of the penalty: If I cruise for hookers in a piece of shit car, I’m risking losing less than if I do so in a brand spankers Lexus. Seems extremely unfair. The crime is the same in both cases. I mean, if you go walking looking for a prozzy, do they still go take your car? Is it a specifically different crime to solicit from a vehicle rather than on foot, or on a bicycle? If I drive a big rig, or a taxicab, and it’s my livelihood, can they take those? Or if it’s a rental, what happens then? Does your insurance cover it, or no? Sounds like the cops are busting your brothers balls. Stupid laws. Apologies for a non factual answer. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/5 "2003-09-16T21:39:30Z")
He should ask his lawyer what happens to the car in the event of 1) a conviction; 2) an acquittal and 3) a plea bargain. If it’s that big an issue then should he decide to take a plea he should be sure that return of the car is a term of the deal. IANAL etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/6 "2003-09-16T21:44:40Z")
The idea is to make a punishment that would actually intimidate overpaid bastards who would otherwise scoff at the fines. I say that fines should simply just be defined as a percentage of income. That way, they do the same amount of relative hurt to the perpetrators. ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/7 "2003-09-16T21:53:22Z")
While prostitution is legal in many countries, it is regulated, and street solicitation is well frowned upon. I am curious where street solicitation is legal. I personally have no problems with red-light districts. I think internet escort services such as Eros is likely the best way for these kind of transaction. But I don’t want to see those skanks walking the streets either. As far as prostitutes go, they are the bottom feeders. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Lu\_abu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@An\_Lu\_abu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Lu_abu)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/8 "2003-09-16T22:19:18Z")
I would never characterise prostitutes as bottom feeders. IMHO they have a living to make and are capitalising on a natural market. It’s not known as the ‘oldest profession’ for no good reason. I have yet to give my custom to one- barring future solo visits to Holland, but the moral outrage I think is undeserved. There are a lot of lonely guys in this world. I fail to see how prostitutes are any more bottom feeders than crack pushers, big tobacco, breweries, distilleries, strip joints and lotteries. They all pander to our common weaknesses/ pleasures. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/9 "2003-09-16T22:21:37Z")
RICO and the various confiscation laws should all be repealed. It’s a bad idea to tempt law enforcement agencies into enforcing laws with an eye to the profits they can make. That said, take Otto’s advice and tell your brother to get a lawyer who’ll know the laws and decisions of his jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/10 "2003-09-16T22:39:33Z")
I suppose that the cops are claiming that keeping a car for evidence is not “public use”. :rolleyes: It’s odd how some parts of the constitution are rigorously enforced, while others are ignored whenever they are inconvenient. As long as a badge is a license to steal, it’s hardly a free country. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/11 "2003-09-16T23:43:05Z")
New York city started confiscating cars of people arrested for DWI, about two years ago. I think they have essentially run out of room to store them. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/12 "2003-09-17T00:15:57Z")
If a $25,000 car can be confiscated for solicitation, does that mean that solicitation is a felony in New York? (Note: my understanding of felony is generally where fine greater than $1,000/ sentence greater than 1 year, this may vary by jurisdiction or have increased since my old law studies classes). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/13 "2003-09-17T00:43:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ShibbOleth \* > If a $25,000 car can be confiscated for solicitation, does that mean that solicitation is a felony in New York? (Note: my understanding of felony is generally where fine greater than $1,000/ sentence greater than 1 year, this may vary by jurisdiction or have increased since my old law studies classes). The confiscation of the car is a separate civil proceeding, not a criminal penalty. The value of the car doesn’t make punishing the offense into a felony. The civil forfeiture is a sort of legal fiction, in which the property is a party to the proceeding - leading to cases styled along the lines of “United States vs. One 1998 Green Toyota Avalon”. The theory is that the property itself is “guilty” of being used to commit crime and is thus subject to seizure. In general, this is permitted, although characterizing the process as civil does not mean the government dodges the Eighth Amendment’s Excessive Fines Clause. A disproportionately large civil seizure can trigger Eighth Amendment or Double Jeopardy protection, according to the Supreme Court (_Austin v. U.S._ and _U.S. v. Halper_ respectively). - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/14 "2003-09-17T00:54:01Z")
An Lú abú, I meant that the street walkers who hawk their services on street corners are the bottom feeders of prostitution. An escort would be higher. Sorry for that confusion. I should have proofread better ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/15 "2003-09-17T01:15:15Z")
> [@](#): > > what is not, not to like, a shiny bike > no lock, no key…it’s there for me > it’s for real, i’m gonna steal a pair of wheels > FSU…now you can too > > I know soon that someone else > will claim my new bike for themselves > waiting for their lucky day > to make a speedy getaway ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/16 "2003-09-17T01:26:43Z")
Gee, well, I almost hesitate to actually post a factual response in this thread, but here goes. [New York statues](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a22.html) list several (actually 5) degrees of solicitation, which range from a violation to felony charges. Which one **bokap** ’s brother is charged with will depend on the circumstances. Since prostitution is a [misdemeanor](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a56.html), I’m going to guess that he is facing 5th degree solicitation: > [@](#): > > S 100.00 Criminal solicitation in the fifth degree. > A person is guilty of criminal solicitation in the fifth degree when,with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a crime, he solicits, requests, commands, importunes or otherwise attempts to cause such other person to engage in such conduct. > Criminal solicitation in the fifth degree is a violation. > > S 100.05 Criminal solicitation in the fourth degree. > A person is guilty of criminal solicitation in the fourth degree when: > > 1. with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony, he solicits, requests, commands, importunes or otherwise attempts to cause such other person to engage in such conduct; > Criminal solicitation in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor. I see **Bricker** has already sketched out what civil forfeiture means, but you can look up New York’s laws on the subject [here](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/index.html). Civil forfeiture does not require that the act be a felony, only criminal. [Civil forfeiture of cars](http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/dclm/civenf.html) used by “johns” has been a New York policy to address “quality of life crimes”. This was one of Rudy Guliani’s initiatives. > [@](#): > > The Civil Enforcement Unit incorporates attorneys into the Department’s crime fighting effort. … Another initiative, “Operation Losing Proposition,” results in the seizure and forfeiture of “johns’” cars, thereby deterring street prostitution. If the NYPD and DA does pursue forfeiture against your brother, he loses the title and ownership to the vehicle. His loan with the bank, however, is likely not terminated. Most loan notes require repayment whether or not the collateral is still in the debtor’s possession. Links to organizations that are fighting against forfeiture laws are available [here](http://www.magnolia.net/~leonf/forfeiture/forf-vol.html). IANAL, all standard disclaimers and cautions apply, YMMV, use only as directed, keep all flammable materials at least 12 inches from the front of this post. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/17 "2003-09-17T02:45:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by An Lú abú \* > \*\*What worries me is the proportionality of the penalty: If I cruise for hookers in a piece of shit car, I’m risking losing less than if I do so in a brand spankers Lexus. Seems extremely unfair. The crime is the same in both cases. \*\* Actually, if that piece-of-shit car is all that you can afford, you’re risking \*more \* than the guy in the Lexus. Likely, he can afford to buy another car if his is confinscated. “Value” is relative. Poor men might lose their only means of transportation, which, in turn, may lead to the loss of their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/18 "2003-09-17T02:58:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > **The civil forfeiture is a sort of legal fiction, in which the property is a party to the proceeding - leading to cases styled along the lines of “United States vs. One 1998 Green Toyota Avalon”. The theory is that the property itself is “guilty” of being used to commit crime and is thus subject to seizure.** The property doesn’t even get to defend itself (nor can you defend it), IIRC, because only people have the right to due process and a fair trial. Tricky! ---
**Author:** ![bokap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9adbd/32.png) [@bokap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bokap)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/19 "2003-09-17T03:20:13Z")
Back to my original question. If the charges are dropped would my brother get his car back? If he does lose the car what would happen if he stopped making payments? It does not make sense to me that NYC could auction off the car and my brother would still be paying for it. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995/20 "2003-09-17T05:21:19Z")
Let’s not forget what forum we’re in, folks. **bokap** asked factual questions about what happens to the car in the case the charges are dropped or in case payments are not made. Let’s answer them and not turn this into a debate about the fairness of civil forfeiture or the morality of prostitution. bibliophage moderator GQ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-brother-was-arrested-for-solicitation/201995.md?page=2)