# My Calculus Rant **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 12, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020 "2019-03-12T19:34:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/41 "2019-03-13T14:19:39Z")
double post ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/42 "2019-03-13T14:21:22Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > That is more my point. I know of very few people in my career paths (business management) who **need** to know implicit differentiation using infinitesimals. Nowadays, I think most colleges and universities offer a different “version” of Calculus to Business majors (called something like “Business Calculus” or “Calculus for Social Science”) than the traditional STEM Calculus. My own suspicion (and that’s all it is) is that, of business-related majors who take calculus, very few will ever need to use most of the specific, nitty-gritty details (like how to compute the derivative or integral of a complicated function), but many of them will benefit from gaining some familiarity with the basic ideas and concepts studied in such a course (e.g. rates of change, absolute vs relative maxima and minima, the fact that not everything’s linear or even continuous, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/43 "2019-03-13T14:35:33Z")
Not to get too much in the weeds on double entry, but: Accounting is based on four basic account types that generate two basic reports. The reports are the Balance Sheet, and the Profit and Loss. The Balance sheet account are Assets (the dollar amount of everything you own, and all the money that you are owed) and Liabilities (the dollar amount of everything you owe to others). The P&L accounts are Income (all the money you have earned over a set period) and expenses (all the money you have spent over the same period). The natural sign of these accounts are Assets positive (debit), Liabilities negative (credit), which makes sense to most people, and Income negative, and Expense positive, which most people find counter intuitive. The way the double entry goes: You create an invoice for a customer, the entry is credit income, debit asset, typically Accounts Receivable. When your customer pays you credit AR, debit cash, typically a bank account. When you get a bill from a vendor, debit expense, credit liability, typically Accounts Payable. When you pay that invoice debit AP, credit cash, typically a bank account. The balance sheet report always balances to zero. All of your Assets plus all your Liabilities equals zero. The way this is achieved is through a type of liability account called an equity account (how much the business owes to its owners). If the company is profitable it will have a credit balance in equity, if it is not profitable it will have a positive balance, helpfully called negative equity. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/44 "2019-03-13T14:45:24Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Nowadays, I think most colleges and universities offer a different “version” of Calculus to Business majors (called something like “Business Calculus” or “Calculus for Social Science”) than the traditional STEM Calculus. I took Business Calculus at Villanova in the 1990s. It should have been called “Using math to screw people, a nickel at a time.” The best take away was the calculus of pricing and maximizing profit. It makes it clear that the idea that companies will pass their expenses (increased taxes, increased wages) onto their customers is a complete myth for any mid to large size business. A big box retailer is not going to increase its prices in response to a higher minimum wage because expenses do not enter into how prices are determined. If the market would bear a six pack of socks at $12 instead of $11, then the price would already be $12. Knowing the calculus of pricing also explains how a company can sell a $200 pair of shoes at 80% off and still make money hand over fist. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/45 "2019-03-13T15:14:10Z")
You have to be smart to learn calculus, being smart may make you a better programmer, but that is it. I never thought about Calculus again after leaving the class, and when I went to computer school I never had any thought that calculus was related in any way. Since the purpose of college is to certify intelligence and conscientiousness I think calculus classes could definitely help do that but it is not useful for 95-99% of students. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/46 "2019-03-13T15:29:36Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Thanks for agreeing with me! I knew as a freshman in HS that I would not be an engineer or physicist. I had less than no interest in those fields. Rhetorically, why did I have to take those classes when I (and many others) would have been better served taking more logic classes so we could better understand how to learn? That is fine if you’re absolutely sure that you won’t go into those fields. However, there is a slight risk that if you change your mind partway through college, you’ll have to backtrack and take the calculus courses and delay your graduation. I never said calculus is for everyone, but for some it is essential. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/47 "2019-03-13T15:53:58Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Is it correct that education deliberately goes beyond what is necessary, in order to leave a stronger impression? For example, is something like the Magna Carta or English Civil War taught even knowing that the student will forget the details, in the hopes of giving the student a better grasp of contemporary political affairs? Working with calculus will reinforce simple familiarity with and understanding of functions — understanding which will be useful even when no calculus is needed. > > Many careers require _no_ real math at all, and many “hard science” careers _will_ require some math, but let’s look at careers that are in between. I suggest that the conversation focus on computer programming specifically. > > Simple discrete math comes up often when designing software, but most programming work uses zero trig, calculus or even algebra. When trig is needed, there will often be a textbook recipe that can be plugged in. I can think of many examples where familiarity with or intuition about math is useful in software, but detailed application is unnecessary. I wonder how often most of the engineers and programmers here have needed to solve a quadratic equation, let alone do any non-trivial calculus. How often? I’ve used calculus, differential equations, etc. in work before. But you are right, it’s rare. That said understanding the math behind a lot of the software is very useful. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/48 "2019-03-13T16:06:09Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You understand that integral calculus is inherent in any statistics involving continuous distributions, right? Even if you assume that a working knowledge of calculus is not necessary to perform the turn-the-crank operations of statistical analysis, it is necessary to understand why particular distributions are or are not appropriate for a specific type of problem. Being able to interpret statstical analysis is certainly a useful ability that anyone who makes decisions based on quantitative data should be able to do, but it is also important to understand the limitations and assumptions of those applications. OK, maybe I expressed myself wrong, but I’m interested in teaching kids stuff like this: If there’s a certain probability of A given B, what’s the probability of B given A? You don’t need calculus to solve that. You need algebra and an understanding of conditional probability. More to the point, I want kids to come away with a knowledge of logic, fundamental logical arguments (syllogism, for example), logical fallacies formal and informal, and statistics in _that_ context, not the more formal statistics which is just a sub-field of measure theory. > [@](#): > > From a more fundamental standpoint, integral and differntial calculus are inherent in all physical phenomena, and are also the first (and often only) non-analytic geometry applications of trigonometry that most people experience in stem fields. Understanding applications of calculus and differential equations to different areas of science prepares students to understand the theory behind ideas ranging from chemical reaction rates and thermodynamics to digital signal processing and climate circulation modelling. From an intellectual standpoint, calculus is the first introduction into the idea that mathematics isn’t just a mechanical tool for performing calculations but is a different way of learning and thinking. It is to STEM fields /what the Classics and Shakespeare are to literature; you don’t need to have them to know how to read and right, but you are missing almost all of the context about where our language and semantics of Western culture come from. And this is where I differ: You can learn calculus to the extent of your interest in the physical sciences, but the true foundation of being a functional adult is being able to use logical arguments and determine risk. _That_ is what elevated us from mere superstition, and _that_ is what’s needed in our and every society. > [@](#): > > Programmers and software engineers (which is what most computer science departments seem dedicated to churning out) may not need to know any calculus to do their jobs, but then, they don’t actually need to know much actual computer science theory like discrete mathematics, either, unless they are programming at a bare metal level This is, simply, wrong: Both because programming at the bare metal level has absolutely no bearing on what kinds of math you use to analyze your programs, and because programmers do indeed need to know what kind of runtime behavior their program is going to have on the kinds of inputs they expect it to see. Big-O notation is a tiny amount of calculus (limits, to be precise) and a lot of creating the formula to take a limit _of_, which is done using counting arguments. Seriously… where did you get the idea that assembly language programmers are in special need of theoretical computer science concepts? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/49 "2019-03-13T16:29:05Z")
It is impossible to predict in advance what knowledge will be important or necessary- occasionally it is a surprise- so the more you learn, the better, but at the same time one cannot learn everything in the first year or even a multi-year curriculum. Therefore, administrators always make compromises. So whether computer science is approached as a branch of mathematics or of engineering, students get a decent grounding in mathematical techniques including infinitesimal calculus and differential equations; your psychologists, economists, and physicians a perhaps more abbreviated one, and pure classics majors may end up taking a lot of philosophy instead. All other things being equal, though, it would be a strange argument to make that ignorance equals bliss in a scholarly environment, or that any harm is done to anyone by accidentally taking an introductory mathematics class. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/50 "2019-03-13T17:01:14Z")
You don’t have to be smart to learn calculus. Anyone can learn it. You don’t have to be smart to read Ulysses, you just need time to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/51 "2019-03-13T19:08:09Z")
My own take: Basic math and practical math (including basic financial math, how to half or double a recipe, etc) should be required for everyone - this is through what is called Algebra 1 (which in my experience is a middle school subject). At that point we are off the rails. MOST jobs won’t need calculus - for those that do its critical - but a middle schooler knows if they like math enough and are driven enough to get through calculus. Most jobs don’t need trig, or Algebra II. The only time I’ve FOILED in my adult life is teaching my own kids how to FOIL. Likewise, MOST people will not need the skills you develop analyzing The Great Gatsby or The Scarlet Letter. Most PEOPLE do need critical thinking skills. They need logic skills (which is what geometric proofs are). They need statistics. By high school, school should not be as much about check boxes (have you taken four years of math) and more about making sure you get the skills that are going to help you along your anticipated life path. For some people that will be two years of Calc in high school. For some that plus detailed level Science coursework. For others, it will be four of a foreign language or developing research and writing skills to get them through a liberal arts degree. For others that is going to be learning to weld or clean a carburetor. For everyone that will involve enough History, Economics, Sociology to be able to make intelligent informed decisions when it comes to voting. It will be enough Science to be able to call bullshit on obvious bullshit. It will be enough statistics to be able to tell when someone is lying with it. Enough math to do your taxes. Enough computer skills to be able to submit resumes online. And, if you change your mind on what you want to do, thats what remedial college or intro college work is for. I REALLY hate the four years of math, four of English, three of foreign language, three of Science of the college admissions process. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020/52 "2019-03-13T19:48:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Because it’s something I’m familiar with. 🙂 I’d be interested in any “in-between” career, perhaps “technician” but not “scientist.” Setting aside math-intensive careers like computer graphics or mechanical design, how many people ever solve a quadratic equation or use calculus? > > I should have noted exceptions like rendering, robotics, statistics as programming areas where math _is_ required, but I stand by my claim that “most programming work uses zero trig or calculus.” Even for something as technical as optimizing discrete wavelets for signal compression, Fourier transforms and regularity measures are something of a detour! Intuition, experimentation, and a little algebra are enough. It’s fun to follow the proof that DCT is the asymptotically optimal block compaction transform for Markov-1 signals, but for most implementers the theoretic properties are irrelevant. > > This is not to say that _mathematical intuition_ is useless. Consider the common test _**if (Dist(x1,y1, x2,y2) \< Dist(x3,y3, x4,y4))**_. Most programmers will end up taking a **sqrt** inside each **Dist** , and this might dominate execution speed in some applications. With even a little intuition one notes that **sqrt** is monotonic and eliminates the **sqrt** ’s! You can’t tell. I used graph theory and automata theory more than any of the stuff above, though I’ve taken it, but that might be because I never enjoyed it. If I did I could have moved in different directions. That’s the argument for teaching a wide range of math, even if most people only use a fraction of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-calculus-rant/831020.md?page=2)