# My CCW Class: 12 hours of unmitigated horror. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486 "2005-09-26T13:05:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/41 "2005-09-26T17:38:17Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > **lno** , you better go back for your doctorate in humoretics. No, you see, the German theory is that the unfunnier the joke, and the more of them, the funnier they get. It’s something that’s yet to become broadly accepted outside of academia, though. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/42 "2005-09-26T17:51:46Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Regardless of your opinion of the _motivation_ of instituting mandatory training before issuing a CCW permit, surely the OP illustrates the critical necessity of such training (although hopefully taught by someone competent)? It’s pretty hard to argue that safety training is simply a pointless roadblock when you have a class full of people handling guns in an unsafe fashion? But it _wasn’t_ safety training, was it? Sounds more like a 12-hour goatfuck to me. Here in PA, there is no requirement for safety training. It should be a pretty straightforward process: 1. Apply for the permit. 2. Undergo and pass background check. 3. Get permit. In practice, since the process is under the control of county sheriffs, some of them choose to encumber the process. Here’s how it worked last time I had to renew mine: 1. Take a day off from work since the sheriffs office will only accept the application if you fill it out there, in person, during certain limited hours. 2. Find the annex where they handle the paper work, since it isn’t actually done at the sheriff’s office. 3. Fill out paper work, pay fee with money order (no checks, credit cards, or cash accepted). 4. Wait thirty days, the absolute maximum state law permits. 5. Go back to pick up the permit in person, as the sheriff requires, though there is nothing in state law preventing him from mailing it. (another day off from work) Any of that seem to be about safety? Do I dispute the need for safety training? Not at all. What I dispute is that there is any real concern for safety behind the rtequirement. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/43 "2005-09-26T18:04:29Z")
Tack another one onto the :eek: crowd. :smack: **Crafter\_man** , I’m surprised that you nor anyone else in the class didn’t raise a hand and say “WTF, over!” I’m not putting the onus on you, I’m just saying I can’t believe an entire class of morons could congregate with that sort of firepower (100 people? Keeeeeeeerist!) In every class I’ve been in, _ **SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY** _ is not only key, but enforced–but then again, it’s all run through the base Security Forces folks. That’s not to say we don’t have a little levity in the class: Last week, I qualified on the [M-60](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m60e3.htm) [sub]Yeah, we still got 'em[/sub]. After all 12 students burned their ammo, we still had 300 rounds left. So, they let us shoot 'em and shred the plywood targets to heck. It was fun, but it was _safe_. I can’t believe the instructor got away with that. Doesn’t he have a state monitor or someone to oversee his classes? Tripler Yes, I can now add “machine gunner” to my list of skills. Chicks dig guys with skills. [sub]like bo-staff skills, computer hacking skills. . .[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/44 "2005-09-26T18:25:29Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Anyway, the instructor was waiving his gun throughout the duration of the 10-hour classroom portion, and regularly pointed it at the class. Of course, the gun was unloaded. But should _that_ make any difference? Rule #1: All guns are _always_ loaded. Always. If it’s in battery, it’s loaded, even if the loaded chamber indicator says no; even if you just checked it two seconds ago; even if there’s no ammunition in the room. This is fundamental gun safety; not only is it bad practice and a bad example, it’s downright negligent. Once, backaways, I was a certified firearms instructor. For the most part, when demonstrating, we used a disabled gun (one from which the firing pin had been removed and the barrel plugged with orange paraffin) for teaching drawing, handling, aiming, and trigger technique. (Dry firing is very hard on the firing pin, BTW. If you’re going to do that, you need to get what are called Snap Caps, dummy rounds that absorb the firing pin impact.) The only time functional, loaded guns were used was on the range, and then, only three or four students were on the line at once, partnered with another student whose responsibility it was to check their technique. When students came off the line, they had to take their weapons out of battery, demonstrate to the rangemaster or instructor that they were evacuated, and then holster or case them until it was their turn to shoot again. Your description of the class sounds like an “accident” (i.e. gross negligence) waiting to happen. Funny how often those “unloaded” guns tend to pop off when you least expect it. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It was 12 hours of complete horror. I am STILL in shock. :eek: One Sunday morn about ten years ago I was at the local gun club (outdoor range) when a bunch of Phelps County Sheriff Deputies came by to use the range for their annual check-out (something they were allowed to do gratis). You’ve never seen such a group of Keystone Kops as these bozos; waving obviously loaded pistols, rifles, and submachine guns around with no regard to safety, firing Steven Seagal-style (and of course, not hitting a damn thing), shooting glass bottles at close range, and just generally acting like a bunch of irresponsible assholes. They also wouldn’t stop firing when I needed to go down range to change targets (“Don’t worry, man! We won’t shoot in your lane!”) so I called it a day and packed up. I’ve never had much confidence in the ability of allegedly professional peace officers to safely handle firearms since, unless demonstrated otherwise. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/45 "2005-09-26T19:44:40Z")
Geeze, that sounds bad. My experience with guns is limited, but I know how to safely use one, carry one, store one, and, finally, fire one. I got both rifle shooting and shotgun shooting when I was a Scout and they wouldn’t even let you take the merit badge unless you were at least 14 or 16 (don’t remember which) and took the class the State of New Mexico requires for a minor to get a hunting license. (Got 100% on the written test too.) I also proved to be rather good at it–first in my group to qualify on both badges, which was a real trick as I was trying to fire a right-handed bolt-action .22 left-handed. The only thing that made it possible was the fact that the rifle had a five-round magazine so that I only had to put it down to reload once instead of 10 times. Do you know how hard it is to shoot a group with a rifle that’s set up backwards? Anyway, I can’t believe that class. Actually, I can, because lots and lots of people are idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/46 "2005-09-26T20:53:39Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > You know, you make an interesting point. > > Call me naïve, but it never occurred to me that there are some real idiots & inexperienced people out there who are flat out dangerous w/ guns. Up until now, I and all my shooting buddies have always been anally-retentive when it came to firearms safety, and I always assumed that that’s how _all_ gun owners were. It’s a matter of culture, isn’t it ? My experience with firearms is (almost exclusively) in a military setting, and even when I take the innate idiocy in the male 18-25 segment into account, it gave me a somewhat bleak outlook as to who should carry firearms when not under strict command. I still shudder to think what some of us inadvertently could have done to ourselves and others, if it hadn’t been for some very strict rules, close supervison and creative & draconian punishment for fucking it up. We got it eventually, but since then I’ve been pretty sceptical of the overall wisdom of people purchasing firearms without necessarily possessing the skills and judgement necessary. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/47 "2005-09-26T21:03:43Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > One Sunday morn about ten years ago I was at the local gun club (outdoor range) when a bunch of Phelps County Sheriff Deputies came by to use the range for their annual check-out (something they were allowed to do gratis). You’ve never seen such a group of Keystone Kops as these bozos; waving obviously loaded pistols, rifles, and submachine guns around with no regard to safety, firing Steven Seagal-style (and of course, not hitting a damn thing), shooting glass bottles at close range, and just generally acting like a bunch of irresponsible assholes. The local cops (Sylvania & Sylvania Township, Ohio) were at one time permitted free use of the range(s) at my local gun club, too. The club members eventually voted to remove the cops privileges for repeated gross violations (and refusal to modify their dangerous behavior) including actually drinking beer on the fucking firing line. I really hated being a range safety officer on the days those assholes would show up. You were all but guaranteed at least one loud argument. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/48 "2005-09-26T21:56:27Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If you ever take a CCW course, I highly recommend the following: Heh, my CCW class had no firearms involved — at least not in the students’ hands — except for one period where assistant instructors closely monitored the process. We shot our own guns for the identified shooting period at the range proper; however, there was no playing around w/ guns during the class. My favorite gun-safety lesson was when I was taking hunters’ safety as a kid. The instructor was illustrating how one would track & lead a duck, then he pulled the trigger and there was BANG! and we all about crapped out pants; then the instructor berated us for not asking whether the gun was loaded. He did that for every class: he took out all the powder, shot, and wad, so that the primer was the only thing left; it mad a loud enough bang to get the point across. Most the stupidity in my CCW class was when students kept trying to proselytize some right-wing manifesto; otherwise, it was a nice, safe group. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/49 "2005-09-26T22:37:39Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > **Crafter\_man** , I’m surprised that you nor anyone else in the class didn’t raise a hand and say “WTF, over!” I’m not putting the onus on you, I’m just saying I can’t believe an entire class of morons could congregate with that sort of firepower (100 people? Keeeeeeeerist!)[/sub] Yes, I agree – shame on me for not saying anything, or leaving. As I stated in another post, I’m kicking my ass a thousand times. In the spirit of taking the high road, here’s what I’m going to do: I’m going to email the instructor and let him know about the safety infractions that occurred during training. I will tell him that it’s virtually impossible for one instructor to oversee the habits of 100 students, so I will offer to help him at his next training session at no charge. While he is up front on stage teaching handgun tactics (or whatever), I’ll quitely walk around the students and politely (but firmly) let people know when they have violated a safety rule. The beauty of this approach is that, instead of “reporting” the instructor, I am offering (at no charge) to **help** him. If I were him, this would be an offer I couldn’t refuse. I’ll let you know what he says. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/50 "2005-09-26T22:56:34Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The point of the class isn’t to actually instruct anybody. The point of the class is to provide one more inconvenient legal hoop for you to jump through. Therefore, it was a complete success. Close, but no banana. The anti-gun lobby insistes on the courses in hopes that the wannabee CCWs kill each other off by accident during the instruction session. It takes a very dedicated anti-gun instructor to do such a poor job in face of such danger. :rolleyes: Or perhaps, just perhaps, the purpose of the course is to teach handgun safety, but this particular course had a negligent insturctor. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water by trying to establish that gun safety courses are of no benefit simply beause one instructor is negligent. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Bruin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Queen\_Bruin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Bruin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/51 "2005-09-26T22:58:46Z")
I just came to add another :eek:. Christ, I’ve had that “treat every gun as if loaded” thing hammered into my head since my dad started taking me out shooting when I was seven years old. I hope you can report the instructor to a superior, **Crafter\_Man**. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/52 "2005-09-26T23:11:32Z")
Can someone answer a dumb question? What is unsafe about racking the slide on a pistol? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/53 "2005-09-26T23:20:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Can someone answer a dumb question? What is unsafe about racking the slide on a pistol? Whenever you’re handling a gun, and _especially_ if you’re manipulating the controls, you should _always_ keep your finger off the trigger and keep the gun pointing in a safe direction. As mentioned, students routinely racked their slides with their finger on the trigger and while pointing the muzzle at someone. Stupid, stupid, stupid. :smack: Case in point: Last December I was racking the bolt on my FAL rifle and the damn receiver blew up on me. Turned out the cause was a broken firing pin, which in turn caused a round to go off out-of-battery. Fortunately, though, I had the rifle pointed in a safety direction while I was racking the bolt. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/54 "2005-09-26T23:23:35Z")
Looking back, I suspect the instructor and the students would say,\* “But the guns were not loaded!!”\* if I pointed out the gross safety violations they had committed. Assuming this to be true, the problem with this attitude is that they are admitting they have _ **two** _ sets of gun handling rules: one for _loaded_ guns, and one for _unloaded_ guns. Indeed, this _had_ to be the case with the instructor; safety in the classroom was very lax to nonexistent (where it was assumed all guns were _unloaded_), while safety on the range was strict (where it was assumed all guns were _loaded_). There should **not** be _ **two** _ sets of gun handling rules. There should only be _ **one** _ sets of rules, and they should apply equally to loaded guns _and_ unloaded guns. So from now on, I _will_ speak up when I see safety infractions! And if I tell someone that they violated one of the Four Safety Rules, and they respond by saying, “It’s O.K. – the gun is not loaded,” I will ask, “So… are you saying you have _two_ different sets of safety rules – one for loaded guns, and one for unloaded guns?” and go from there. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/55 "2005-09-26T23:31:57Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Whenever you’re handling a gun, and _especially_ if you’re manipulating the controls, you should _always_ keep your finger off the trigger and keep the gun pointing in a safe direction. As mentioned, students routinely racked their slides with their finger on the trigger and while pointing the muzzle at someone. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Dumb it down a bit for me, Doc. Are you saying that if I have a pistol, and there’s a round in the chamber, if I rack the slide, there’s a chance (however small) that the round could be accidentally fired? Is that possible if my finger is not on the trigger? Or is the danger in both racking the slide _and_ having my finger on the trigger? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/56 "2005-09-26T23:48:23Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > There should **not** be _ **two** _ sets of gun handling rules. There should only be _ **one** _ sets of rules, and they should apply equally to loaded guns _and_ unloaded guns. Very well said. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/57 "2005-09-26T23:57:11Z")
I didn’t grow up around guns and I’ve never owned a gun, and _I’m_ appalled by this! Of course, I’ve loved a man who owned and collected guns and drilled basic gun safety into me. If a sub-novice like me can understand the concept, “There’s no such thing as an unloaded gun”, you’d think people who actually go to the trouble of buying one and trying to get a concealed carry permit would be able to. Then again, as has already been noted, the fight against ignorance is taking longer than we thought. Hang it, doesn’t that instructor realize that teaching a class in that way is putting ammunition into the hands of the anti-gun lobby? I was raised to be against guns, despite a godfather on the British rifle team, and, if it hadn’t been for exposure to a couple of responsible gun owners, I might still hold that opinion. Good luck, **Crafter Man**. I hope he does take you up on your offer and the next class goes better. CJ ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/58 "2005-09-27T00:19:34Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The beauty of this approach is that, instead of “reporting” the instructor, I am offering (at no charge) to **help** him. > > If I were him, this would be an offer I couldn’t refuse. I’ll let you know what he says. When I read in your OP that the instructor was LEO, I was no longer shocked and amazed. A literal, “Oh, that figures” moment. If he’s like most LEOs I’ve met at the range, he won’t accept your offer, and might actually be POd at it (and the implication behind it that he is anything less than in complete control of the situation). ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/59 "2005-09-27T00:33:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Dumb it down a bit for me, Doc. Are you saying that if I have a pistol, and there’s a round in the chamber, if I rack the slide, there’s a chance (however small) that the round could be accidentally fired? Is that possible if my finger is not on the trigger? Or is the danger in both racking the slide _and_ having my finger on the trigger? Well, “racking a slide” may look easy on TV and in the movies, but on most semi-autos, the recoil spring can make it quite a bit more difficult than it looks, especially on a brand new, out-of-the-box firearm. Noobs have a tendency to underestimate this tendency (or not even be aware of it at all), get annoyed/frustrated, and to try to slide their fingers around the grip for a better handle on the weapon, including letting their index finger slide into the trigger guard, where if the slide slips out of their hand and slams back into battery, having the finger on the trigger _and squeezing it_ in an attempt to better control the weapon may result in a discharge. Another thing: once you place a loaded magazine into the magazine well of a semi-auto, the top round may be pressing on the underside of the slide, creating a bit (maybe a lot) more friction than on a firearm w/o a loaded magazine in the well. So the firearm that “racked” stiffly but still easily w/o a loaded magazine may now be a bit or a lot more difficult to rack, and the noob doesn’t know why, get’s frustrated, and lets their attention lapse on where they’re pointing the firearm, where their fingers are, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/60 "2005-09-27T01:01:49Z")
Thanks for the explanation, **ExTank**. I was clueless about why it was bad myself. That sounds scary as hell, like one big room of Russian Roulette. :eek: I have honestly never held any gun but a BB gun, and even I’ve had the rules pounded into me since I was a kid. Probably why I’ve never held one before; they’re just too damn dangerous IMO. At least with a sword, you know if it’s loaded. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486.md?page=4)