# My CCW Class: 12 hours of unmitigated horror. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486 "2005-09-26T13:05:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/61 "2005-09-27T01:38:36Z")
1. There is a product line called [blue guns](http://www.blueguns.com/) that provide non-functioning firearm props. These can be used for waving around and such, as well as basic safe handling practice. 2. A good class should have non-function pistols: take a pistol, and either remove or “prune” the firing pin, so that the pin is too short to strike a primer region of a live round. Until the students are taught and can exhibit safe practice, they shouldn’t be dorking around with their weapons. Weapons in the classroom should be checked for load status. This is a really nice teaching moment; how to check and clear a weapon. Only after the students can do these things safely do they get to handle their own weapons in the classroom, and the first thing they shopuld do is demonstrate safe handling, checking and clearing. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/62 "2005-09-27T01:48:44Z")
> [@BayleDomon](#): > > Thanks for the explanation, **ExTank**. I was clueless about why it was bad myself. That sounds scary as hell, like one big room of Russian Roulette. :eek: > > I have honestly never held any gun but a BB gun, and even I’ve had the rules pounded into me since I was a kid. Probably why I’ve never held one before; they’re just too damn dangerous IMO. At least with a sword, you know if it’s loaded. 😛 No problem. But in all reality, a car is dangerous if you don’t give it its due respect. Even something as innocuous as a kitchen knife is dangerous if you don’t give it its due respect. How many times do you think ER folks get visited by people with severe lacerations from cutting up some cucumber for the evening meal’s salad? While it’s said “familiarity breed contempt,” familiarity, coupled with a firm grasp of safety principles _and awarenes_ renderes even dangerous objects relatively safe to handle (I say relatively 'cause no one wants to mess around with old dynamite if they don’t have to). And to clarify: very few firearms will discharge while depressing the trigger and letting the slide forward. Some will, mostly on older models, but not too many. _Which is only one of myriad reasons to always keep a firearm pointed in a safe direction._ The accidental discharge while racking a slide (more commonly known to us gun nuts as the “upper receiver”) usually comes from the noob forgetting that they let their index or “trigger” finger slip into the trigger guard when they were trying to rack the slide. Which is why, when loading a semi-auto handgun, it’s best to rack the slide first, and lock it open with the slide lock, _then_ insert the loaded magazine, and finally release the slide by disengaging the slide lock. The slide will “home,” stripping the top round out of the magazine and chambering it as it does so. Doing it this way causes the wielder to shift their grip around a bit as they manipulate the slide locking lever, thus making them more conscious of their grip. I’ve seen my kids unintentionally let their fingers slide into the trigger guard, but then correct themselves once they go to release the slide lock to let the slide go forward. The biggest problem I observe with semi-auto handguns is small hands and/or weak grip. The operator is typically unable to maintain a firm grip either through lack of leverage or a firm grip on the handgun while racking the slide. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/63 "2005-09-27T01:56:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you saying that if I have a pistol, and there’s a round in the chamber, if I rack the slide, there’s a chance (however small) that the round could be accidentally fired? Is that possible if my finger is not on the trigger? Or is the danger in both racking the slide _and_ having my finger on the trigger? Yes, that’s precisely what I’m saying. Last year I was in the backyard getting ready to shoot my FAL rifle. I inserted a magazine, pulled back the charging handle, and let go (to let the bolt fly forward). It jammed. So I pulled back the charging handle _again_ and let go. Boom!! The round went off, and a bullet flew down the barrel. Not only that, but it went off _out-of-battery_, and the gun exploded in my face. My finger was never near the trigger, and the safety was on the entire time. A post-mortem inspection revealed the firing pin had broken in two and lodged forward in the bolt. Thanks God I was practicing safe gun handling practices (i.e. the rifle was pointing in a safe direction while I was racking the bolt). I wrote about the incident in more detail [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=291337). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/64 "2005-09-27T02:38:41Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Given the context, it’s definitely the latter. > > Not to often in posts about firearms do we refer to Low Earth Orbits. That would have to be one \*powerful \*handgun! ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/65 "2005-09-27T03:56:51Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > In the spirit of taking the high road, here’s what I’m going to do: I’m going to email the instructor and let him know about the safety infractions that occurred during training. I will tell him that it’s virtually impossible for one instructor to oversee the habits of 100 students, so I will offer to help him at his next training session at no charge. While he is up front on stage teaching handgun tactics (or whatever), I’ll quitely walk around the students and politely (but firmly) let people know when they have violated a safety rule. > > The beauty of this approach is that, instead of “reporting” the instructor, I am offering (at no charge) to **help** him. > > If I were him, this would be an offer I couldn’t refuse. I’ll let you know what he says. You and I are on the same level, and I would happily take you to a National Forest to blow away thousands of rounds, because I trust **you**. But the other 99 from your OP? Jeeez, I’d make a point to stand up and walk out of that class. But that’s me though. I’ve shot in different classes and different calibers. But then again, when you go to a range, there are people that know what’s going on and people that don’t. It’s the people that don’t that surprise me. Tripler I’d still shoot with you any day. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/66 "2005-09-27T04:17:51Z")
[Fun with gun safety](http://www.drunkendelight.com/view.php?id=362) ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/67 "2005-09-27T12:12:42Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Fun with gun safety](http://www.drunkendelight.com/view.php?id=362) Hah! > [@](#): > > . . . and I am the only one professional enough to handle . . . **::::BLAM::::** I’m amazed the guy kept going after he lost his foot. Tripler Rule #2:_ALWAYS_ remove your source of ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/68 "2005-09-27T13:11:46Z")
I don’t think I’ve ever so much as touched anything more than a BB gun, and even I know what morons those people were being. Really, given what could happen, isn’t it obvious you don’t do stupid shit like that with a real gun no matter if it’s loaded or not? Isn’t it??? This scares the crap out of non-gun-handling me, I can tell you. I sort of assume that most people who have guns legally know how to handle them safely (and quite possibly illegally as well, depending on the owner). Otherwise they are idiots. Apparently more of them are idiots than I realized. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/69 "2005-09-27T13:40:23Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Fun with gun safety](http://www.drunkendelight.com/view.php?id=362) I laughed my ass off at that. But give the man his due: he “cowboyed up” and kept on truckin’. Laughed even harder when his asistant went to hand him the rifle and the whole class started yelling “Put it down!” ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/70 "2005-09-27T16:46:17Z")
I do not own a gun. I can count the number of times I have handled guns on the fingers of one hand. Add me to the chorus of :eek: for this story - because despite (or perhaps because of) statements one and two up there, I have had safe gun handling drilled into me from the time I was about eight or nine - first by my father, later by a roommate who kept some variety of .45 in our apartment (not a gun owner, not a gun enthusiast). I refuse to so much as pick up a gun outside of a firing range unless I have been shown by the owner (by pulling back of the slide or what have you) that it’s unloaded. Good grief. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/71 "2005-09-27T17:01:10Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > We were at a range several weeks ago, and I am VERY inexperienced around guns. But I remember from my gun owning friends the rule about never point a weapon at anyone, even if you think/know it is unloaded. So we go into the range and the guy is telling us the rules and he turns around and points an unloaded .45 at my stomach from a foot away. I flinched, big time, and part of it was my check of a reflex to disarm anyone who might point a gun at me in the most painful way possible. The gunrange dude laughed it off (“Look, new guy flinched”), but he never knew that he came awfully close to having the left side of his jaw caved in. Other than that, they were pretty good about stuff, though, so I’m hoping it was a momentary lapse. > > That class sounds pretty scary, though. I don’t believe I would have hesitated in dislocating his wrist and disarming the dimwit. I’ve been through three seperate firearms courses, and nothing is more rote that safety. Muzzle down range, fingers off the triggers until the ‘clear down range - fire’ order is given. Re: the OP, :eek: and I agree, write letters. Lots of letters. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/72 "2005-09-27T17:05:25Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Fun with gun safety](http://www.drunkendelight.com/view.php?id=362) I love that video. "I’m the only one with enough professional training to handle… BLAM oh did I ever get a kick outta that. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/73 "2005-09-27T17:18:29Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > I don’t believe I would have hesitated in dislocating his wrist and disarming the dimwit. > > I’ve been through three seperate firearms courses, and nothing is more rote that safety. Muzzle down range, fingers off the triggers until the ‘clear down range - fire’ order is given. > > Re: the OP, :eek: and I agree, write letters. Lots of letters. How would you have handled the subsequent criminal and civil legal procedings? ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/74 "2005-09-27T17:26:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > …BF’s gun. It would be an understatement to say that they appeared to be extremely inexperienced when it came to firearms. With the exception of my wife, all of them were haphazardly waving their muzzles around, racking the slides, and had their fingers on the triggers. And their brain-dead husbands/BFs… I must take umbrage at this false misrepresentation. because… [R. Lee Ermey]This is my rifle, this is my gun, one is for fighting, one is for fun[/RLE] 😃 > [@](#): > > The beauty of this approach is that, instead of “reporting” the instructor, I am offering (at no charge) to help him. Good on ya, **C\_Man** , it may take a little of the sting out of being called out on the class. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/75 "2005-09-27T17:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I refuse to so much as pick up a gun outside of a firing range unless I have been shown by the owner (by pulling back of the slide or what have you) that it’s unloaded. While there’s nothing really wrong with this, an inspection should never be considered complete until you personally have verified the gun is empty. Having a more experienced handler show the firearm to you with the action open is sufficient, but one should **never** simply take anyone at their word. If a guy hands you a gun and says “It’s not loaded,” you should assume he is mistaken until you have performed your own inspection. After verifying the safe status of the gun, you should still consider it loaded. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/76 "2005-09-27T17:54:02Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > While there’s nothing really wrong with this, an inspection should never be considered complete until you personally have verified the gun is empty. Having a more experienced handler show the firearm to you with the action open is sufficient, but one should **never** simply take anyone at their word. If a guy hands you a gun and says “It’s not loaded,” you should assume he is mistaken until you have performed your own inspection. After verifying the safe status of the gun, you should still consider it loaded. Yes. Yes. This is 100% correct. When someone hands me a gun and says, “It’s unloaded,” I ask them, “Why did you tell me that? What was your point?” (I ask this question as I am checking the chamber.) They usually get a befuddled look on their face. Because, after all, there is no point in telling someone “It’s unloaded” while handing them a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/77 "2005-09-27T20:37:48Z")
Didn’t the King of Spain’s younger brother die in an accident involving a gun that was supposedly unloaded? ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/78 "2005-09-27T21:46:37Z")
Local police Chief did our class… 😃 Maybe six as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/79 "2005-09-28T05:03:12Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > So we go into the range and the guy is telling us the rules and he turns around and points an unloaded .45 at my stomach from a foot away. I flinched, big time, and part of it was my check of a reflex to disarm anyone who might point a gun at me in the most painful way possible. The gunrange dude laughed it off (“Look, new guy flinched”), but he never knew that he came awfully close to having the left side of his jaw caved in. **ShibbOleth** , does “Home of the Stanley Cup” mean this took place in Canada? If so, the gun-range guys should know that it’s a criminal offence to point a gun at someone: [Pointing a Firearm](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/42061.html#section-87) ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486/80 "2005-09-28T05:36:36Z")
I believe the last winners of the Stanley Cup was one of the Florida teams. But it’s hard to remember, because 1. it’s hockey, and 2. there was no hockey last year anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-ccw-class-12-hours-of-unmitigated-horror/323486.md?page=5)