In other words, exactly what Duke said. Please, please tell us what you think these “uncaring” educators should do. Because from my experience on both sides of the issue, where there are kids, there are bullies, and there’s nothing you can do about that.
These threads are always so interesting to me - so many of us speak up with our horrible stories of being bullied (I was the 6th grade pariah - my mom dressed me funny and I had an overbite). But - where are the bullies? No one ever posts how they bullied and made fun of other kids (my main bully was [redacted]).
Well, consider the following two examples:
Kid A walks up and hits Kid B. Kid B pulls out a knife and stabs Kid A.
Kid A fights Kid B after school and gets his ass kicked. Kid A and his group of friends lay waiting for Kid B at the gas station and fuck him up.
Both happen on school grounds. Parents of both children sue the School District or individual teacher(s). Parents argue over who really started what, who was picking on who, demands made by parents to the school/district, etc. That’s just an example of shit that has happened here and why discipline for both students who showed aggression is a necessary, not always popular, action.
Teaching children to defend themselves is fine, but that’s what the teachers and administrators are there for; to make sure that shit doesn’t happen. You should be teaching your kid to walk away. To be self advocates. To not worry about being a ‘snitch’ or a tattle-tale. To not make things worse by getting revenge.
That aggressive action tends to escalate the situation. Do all kids understand restraint? Does a kid realize that self-defense is no longer valid if the person in question is subdued or fleeing? Christ no they don’t.
So unless a person plans to educate their kid on all aspects of self-defense law, of which little applies since they’re kids anyway, a fight in school is a fight. It takes two people to make it happen.
Kids that run to a fight or form a circle around it are just as subject to discipline as those doing the fighting. The purpose is to discourage violence. It’s pretty simple.
Everyone is sensible enough to be quiet about it, hopefully because they regret what they did.
I got picked on like mad in school. Tons of stories about being bullied. But there was one day I remember where some of my friends were screwing with a kid we didn’t really like, and I picked up a pinecone and winged him with it while they were holding onto his arms. It was utterly and inexcusably mean and I regret the hell out of doing it, which of course doesn’t really mean much after the fact. I’m sure I got remembered as a bully by that kid.
I wasn’t really bullied, either. There was one girl in elementary who briefly pushed me around until I beat her up. I then quickly gained (what I felt to be an undeserved) reputation as a “bad girl.” That was eventually reversed, and aside from some catty bitches in junior high, there was no more bullying. It might have helped that I was a tall kid, and my brother was one of the biggest kids in school. I very briefly bullied a girl in elementary school, but in my mind at the time, she deserved it because she was really annoying. I never beat her up, but I threatened to a few times. I know, I’m a terrible person. I was seven, okay?
Regarding what to do: I don’t mean to be snide; I really am curious to know what the OP would like from the principal. He has addressed it with the students, and as far as he knows, it won’t happen again. Should he have strangled them? Suspended them when, from what I’m ascertaining here, this is the first time this has been brought to his attention? If you are sure that the bullying has not stopped, then bring it to the principal again, and if his response is still not acceptable, tell him what you want to be done.
Who the fuck is advocating stabbing bullies? These are ridiculous scenarios.
Gee, and yet it still happens.
And yet we have lots of anecdotes (not data, admittedly) that walking away doesn’t do shit, and fighting back makes the bullies back off.
Sure, the *purpose *is to discourage violence. Unfortunately, instead it supports abuse and prevents kids from stopping it, especially the worst kinds of physical abuse.
Knowing the bullies that picked on me, I doubt they are savvy enough to even know which end of a computer is up, let alone get on the fucking Internet.
I come from a family where kids weren’t expected to have any self-esteem, really. You were always subject to the whims of the elders, even if the elders’ whims were completely irrational. On top of that I stuck out like a sore thumb, having spent my first four years in a different country. No matter what, I was different.
I don’t really remember the teachers doing much, but I know I stopped going to them early. And I didn’t really get out of my “victim” state until well into high school and beyond. I didn’t develop self-confidence until I got out from my parents’ thumb.
And even then they’d find a way.
I’ve said this before, but I also think a big part of it is the anti-intellectualism that is just rampant in this country. Being smart, even a little bit more than average=being picked on.
I never understand people who want to be kids again. I remember. I’d never want to be a kid again, powerless with stronger people all around.
Because being the victim of a bully is often a traumatic and painful experience that stays with you forever. While being a bully was something you did to pass the time when you were bored.
I did bully another kid in 6th grade. He was an extremely big (read: fat) guy who was generally blatantly rude and possessed of poor hygiene.
I felt bad about it, and stopped, when I learned that he was on the border of diagnosis for actual learning disabilities and his mother had forced the school system to put him in normal classes instead of special ed. I stopped feeling bad about it after his second arrest for felony assault as an adult.
The bullies don’t look at it as bullying. Kids are self-centered and do things because they think it’s funny or makes them look better. The fact that it may hurt someone doesn’t play a part.
For example, I once made fun of a friend who had asthma. He sneezed several times in a row and I started walking around him like a train going “Choo-choo”. I did this for a while until a teacher grabbed me and asked me what I was doing. Until that point, I had no idea that I was hurting my friend’s feelings. I just thought it was funny.
Another time a girl with glasses and lazy eye xfered into my class. I wanted to make her feel welcome so I said “Hi four-eyed-freak.” Of course, she was hurt and started crying. At the time I thought she would have thought it was funny like an inside joke.
So I think people have to carefully look at the bully and see if he really is a sadistic bastard or just a kid being an insenstive, self-centered kid. The strategy you use will be different depending on the type. The sadistic bully needs to be treated as a a criminal. But the self-centered bully needs to be repeatedly educated on how to behave. Also, the bullied kid needs to learn how to react appropriately. I feel horrible for what I said to that girl with glasses, but by the same token she needs to somehow know that self-centered kids will make those comments and deal with them in a way other than breaking down in tears.
Yeah, and rape victims need to learn to lie back and enjoy it. :rolleyes:
The police may not, but that’s why private filings exist. All it takes is a trip down to the prosecutor’s office to fill out some paperwork, and voila, the kid who beat up your kid is being charged with assault.
I’m a juvenile defense attorney. I see this ALL THE TIME.
Where the fuck do you see me advocating stabbing bullies? I’m talking about one kid stabbing another, which happens pretty fucking often.
The example is how violence begets violence. That defending yourself can mean different things to different people. And yes, this does happen. In fact, here’s a cite: Student fight leads to stabbing - Las Vegas Sun News
Get your shit straight before you pull attitude.
So if I offer up anecdotes that walking away can or does prevent further violence, I get points in the argument? It’s conjecture and it’s anecdotal, so it’s a moot point anway.
How does it support the worst kinds of abuse? That’s a blanket fucking statement if I’ve ever seen one. When kids realize that there are consequences for fighting, they make the choice. If it’s worth it to fight a bully rather than self advocate, that’s the parenting that’s happening at home. Not my fucking call on that; I try to teach all the student’s to walk away or go tell someone what’s going on. So that they can be protected or the situation can at least be given a resolution.
What about enforcing some real limits WRT interpersonal behavior already from first grade instead of letting the kids “develop” “freely” and generally behaving like monkeys in class?
What about using some real sanctions towards kids caught bullying instead of just chatting with them?
What about involving the bullies’ parents and taking the issue to them, officially, instead of just having a nice chat with the bullies and accepting their solemn promises that this is not going to happen again (yeah, sure!)?
What about accepting that children are the meanest little creatures spawned by Nature unless they are kept in check an socialized properly instead of insisting that children are basically good?
What about at least sounding like she gives a flying fuck and actually believes the story she gets from both the teacher and the parents?
What about at least believing the parents’ stories before the child looks like a piece of poorly cut meat?
Or what about finding a decent fire to die in?
Just some suggestions, mind you. I dunno, I’m not a teacher. I’m just a parent who is stupid enough to really enforce limits WRT interpersonal behavior by my children, and taking other parents seriously if my kids are caught doing things they’re not supposed to do (I’m even stupid enough to not think or say “ooo, nooo, they’d never, ever do such things”). And I still want that fuckwad of a do-nothing idealist who believes in the good in people to die. slowly. in. a. fire. And I’d bring popcorn and a chair for the show if she was joined by the g*ddamned egotistical parents who can’t believe that what their moronic little fuckers are doing is pushing other humans to seriously consider suicide. Hell, I’d even bring pompoms and a vuvuzela.
And, just FTR: I’m not living in the US. In our judicial system we don’t sue for mental damage, we can only sue for documented economic losses and ditto probable losses of future income. Ergo, a lawyer is not an option. At least not before suicide actually happens. Our schools are public, and which school your child attends is decided by where you live. Period. Our only private schools are those catering to religious groups or special teaching principles, like Steiner schools. Ergo, the only way to switch school is to move to another town (or part of the town, if you’re living in a town large enough to have more than one school). So the options are pretty scarce.
[QUOTE=neuroman]
do you honestly think the police are going to give a flying fuck about one 9 year old hitting another (unless someone winds up in the hospital over it)?
[/QUOTE]
Quoted for truth
Right, but it’s a bullshit scenario in this discussion, because nobody *here *is talking about stabbing a bully to get them to leave you alone. So for you to say “fighting back isn’t an acceptable option because stabbing is worse that bullying!” is a fucking bullshit strawman.
Sure, it prevents further abuse… at that moment. Does it prevent the same abuse from happening again the next day? And the next? And the next? And the next? How many times is the kid supposed to “walk away” from verbal or physical abuse?
Because it means that kids who are being physically abused can’t even stop their abusers, because then they will be subject to the same punishments.
Fine ideas. Have you suggested these to the principal? Is the principal aware that this is an ongoing problem, or does he think it has been resolved? Judging from your OP, it seems as if your kid has been enduring the bullying in silence, and when you finally find out about it, you went to the principal who, as far as I can tell, believes he has addressed it. If I am not have this right, feel free to correct me instead of getting snippy.
I guess equating kids who have yet to learn where the limits are when interacting with other children with rapists pretty much allows you to justify anything, doesn’t it?
Yup, that’s what I used to believe in.
Now I believe in careful judgment of when violence is necessary and the deliberate use of violence when violence is deemed necessary, because some fucking Neanderthals understand only one language. And I tell my children just that. Sometimes you just can’t run, you have to fight. And if that happens, make sure that you do so before you’re driven to desperation, because you need to be in control of the situation and that you won’t be if you’ve been driven over the edge by others. You gotta stop before the edge and then step over it deliberately and in full control of yourself. You can use rage to your advantage, but don’t let rage take control.
Because sure as hell, one day will come when “someone” can’t do fucking nothing about the hell you’re living in.
It’s a fucking example of how VIOLENCE BEGETS VIOLENCE. It’s also why the argument of a kid defending themselves against a bully can do the the former. How is that a strawman argument? Better yet, how hard is that to fucking understand as a concept?
Wrong again. By, and you’ll notice I’m using caps again to make a point I mentioned upthread, SELF-ADVOCATING for themselves, they won’t be a fucking victim! They tell someone with the authority to intervene on their behalf, that’s how they prevent it from happening.
It means that the choice they made to end the abuse, not the choice of ending it, was not one that should be the first choice. Do you not understand the difference between the two?
You bet your sweet… oops, sorry. To you, that is.
She has been made aware, but I’m not particularly certain that she is aware.
Partly correct, partly wrong. Not in complete silence, but it took quite a while before we were aware of the extent of the situation. And I still believe that quite a big part of the problem is the almost complete lack of limits to the childrens’ behavior in school, an inaction which allows for the development of that kind of behavioral patterns in that particular school