# My Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076 "2013-12-24T13:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/121 "2014-01-03T02:20:21Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > If this is to be a Great Debate, I’d like to hear what you think the meaning of life is? I figure there is no meaning inherent meaning to life so you can make it it anything you want it to be. This seems to me superior to the Biblical meaning of life which is to fear God and keep his commandments: > **[Ecclesiastes 12:13 - The Fear of God is Utmost](https://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/12-13.htm)** > > When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this is the whole duty of man. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/122 "2014-01-03T02:21:39Z")
> [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > The Biblical suggestions are basically a roadmap for emotionally healthy people and a working larger society. Even the ones about killing homosexuals? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/123 "2014-01-03T02:22:51Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So what do you think made God change his mind from the Old Testament? And why doesn’t Jesus practice what he preaches (haha) to those who don’t worship him in the afterlife? Well, to a certain degree he did. Asking that those who crucified him be forgiven, for instance. Why did God change his mind? A Christian might say it’s part of the accepting of a sacrifice in lieu of our paying for our own sins. A non-Christian can merely admire the growth in moral maturity from the OT to the NT. > [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > I found Socrates highly annoying for the same reason, btw. He held these question and answer sessions to disprove things, but he didn’t suggest what to replace them with. I think Aristotle and others at least gave it a shot, so I have more respect for them. . . . Much agreement. Socrates doesn’t have very much to offer us. Plato, at least, described “The Republic,” without, however, addressing any of the outstanding flaws of his creation. He even admits, with some embarrassment, that it has to be based upon a myth, specifically crafted to satisfy the people in order to gain their acceptance of the rule of the Philosopher-Kings. I can’t find any way to respect “Let’s make up a story” as the basis for governmental legitimacy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/124 "2014-01-03T02:33:08Z")
> [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > Protestants for the most part believe that once you accept Jesus into your heart you are saved from then after. This is how some Christians justify things like adultery, serial killing or whatever, because they believe that nothing they can do after becoming born again counts. > > Catholics are different. You are baptized into a state of grace, but if your behavior and choices are sinful, you fall out of grace. In those situations, you have to repent (and mean it) in confession and strive to avoid giving in to temptation to stay in a state of grace. This is why Catholics have confessions on the death bed and Last Rites. Which is why just as you mock the Protestants for justifying “things like adultery, serial killing” by being “saved”, _they_ will mock Catholics for being able to rob and murder and making all it good as long as they get in a last minute confession before death. The devout Mafia Don scenario. > [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > One wouldn’t have to worry about marrying divorced women if men weren’t allowed to divorce them and abandon their families in the first place. Most divorces are instigated by the _woman_. > [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > Same with lots of other Biblical guidelines. Without promiscuous pre-marital sex, and no divorce, there are considerably less single parent households and thus less poverty and less social damage from children being raised without a father. Instead, you have households filled with violence and hatred; two people who despise each other forced to stay together. And you have “social damage” from kids being raised in a home at war with itself. > [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > The Biblical suggestions are basically a roadmap for emotionally healthy people and a working larger society. No; the Bible is an Iron Age collection of myths. It’s a roadmap for barbarism, because it was _written_ by barbarians. It’s just as silly to expect it to equal modern standards as it would be to expect the law of ancient Rome to work in the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![QueenOfClubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/53a042/32.png) [@QueenOfClubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenOfClubs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/125 "2014-01-03T02:36:44Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I believe the principle here is that we shouldn’t think about sex as much as you usually do. The young are allowed their courtships and the effort for such, but once they settle and have kids … it’s a done deal. Now you have time to mow the neighbor widow-woman’s yard, or whatever. The heathen spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get … well … an inordinate amount of time. I’m not sure that’s is so much about not having sex for being sinful as it is that the long run results are incredibly damaging to society. I think the Bible is fairly practical in that regard. And of course, since the basic tenet of Christianity is that all people are sinners which I think is also simply a realism, the best anyone can do is view the rules as something to strive up to with the reward being a happier life generally. People often think things, relationships, drugs, alcohol and/or the freedom to do those things when they want constitute happiness. Imo, I don’t think any of that really makes people happy. People trend to being happiest when they are respectfully loved, appreciated and feel useful. Also, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![QueenOfClubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/53a042/32.png) [@QueenOfClubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenOfClubs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/126 "2014-01-03T02:40:03Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Even the ones about killing homosexuals? Lol, where did you pull that from? Leviticus? There is considerable debate about whether Jesus came to fulfill the law or change it and of course you’re talking about Jewish law which non-Jews weren’t liable to live up to in any event. Believe it or not, the Bible isn’t a pamphlet attacking homosexuals. Unmarried homosexual sex is the exact same sin as heterosexual sex. The New Testament doesn’t ramble on and on about homosexuals. For homosexuals to assume any Church or it’s teachings are all about them is highly narcissistic. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/127 "2014-01-03T02:40:37Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I figure there is no meaning inherent meaning to life so you can make it it anything you want it to be. Hey, as long as you pay your child support, go for it. I believe God has given you gifts to do good works, and that you will do good works for Him. I find meaning in providing safe and affordable housing for the widows and orphans in my community. Where do you find meaning? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/128 "2014-01-03T02:46:04Z")
> [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > I’m not sure that’s is so much about not having sex for being sinful as it is that the long run results are incredibly damaging to society. > > I think the Bible is fairly practical in that regard. No, it isn’t. Premarital sex is certainly not “incredibly damaging to society”; Biblical prohibitions against it on the other hand are “incredibly damaging”. They have caused centuries of misery, violence and oppression. And “practical” is one thing the Bible isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![QueenOfClubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/53a042/32.png) [@QueenOfClubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenOfClubs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/129 "2014-01-03T02:46:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; the Bible is an Iron Age collection of myths. It’s a roadmap for barbarism, because it was _written_ by barbarians. It’s just as silly to expect it to equal modern standards as it would be to expect the law of ancient Rome to work in the modern world. Ridiculous. We have the same laws now that correspond with the ten commandments because they are obvious. Don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t slander. And even countries that have total separation of Church and State like the Scandinavian countries enact the same laws. Without being able to protect yourself or your property only the strong would survive and then only temporarily until they were no longer capable of keeping or taking from others. Like Somalia. Imo, Scandinavian countries are much more “Christian”, if you will, than America. They don’t underpay their workers, they have fantastic safety nets, they value motherhood so much they placehold jobs and financially supplement parents, and their overall approach mirrors what we would consider to be Jesus’ teachings. And clearly it does work. The problem with Americans isn’t that they are Christians but that as a country we are hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/130 "2014-01-03T02:46:34Z")
> [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > Unmarried homosexual sex is the exact same sin as heterosexual sex. There’s exactly one sentence in Laviticus and I’m not looking it up. Frankly, I don’t know any homosexuals who say they are good and righteous Christians. All I know for sure is that I’m not gay, but I’m not really heterosexual either. Pffft … there is a third road, ya know, and I find both communities hating on me … go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/131 "2014-01-03T02:50:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, to a certain degree he did. Asking that those who crucified him be forgiven, for instance. In the greater context of the rest of the Bible that was more a “forgive them for now” type of thing, so long as they later repent and worship later, wasn’t it? > [@](#): > > Why did God change his mind? Because he wasn’t really omniscient. > [@](#): > > A Christian might say it’s part of the accepting of a sacrifice in lieu of our paying for our own sins. That makes no sense. God should just get over this whole sin thing and stop caring about adulation and sacrifice. > [@](#): > > A non-Christian can merely admire the growth in moral maturity from the OT to the NT. As a non-Christian I think I might rather be killed on earth than burned in hell, but I suppose everyone can make up their own minds on that. I still prefer my answer about God not being omniscient myself. > [@](#): > > Much agreement. Socrates doesn’t have very much to offer us. He’s better than Jesus by a long shot. > [@](#): > > Plato, at least, described “The Republic,”… Socretes had a pretty big part in the Republic didn’t he? > [@](#): > > I can’t find any way to respect “Let’s make up a story” as the basis for governmental legitimacy. That’s funny, coming from a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![QueenOfClubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/53a042/32.png) [@QueenOfClubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenOfClubs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/132 "2014-01-03T02:52:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it isn’t. Premarital sex is certainly not “incredibly damaging to society”; Biblical prohibitions against it on the other hand are “incredibly damaging”. They have caused centuries of misery, violence and oppression. And “practical” is one thing the Bible isn’t. I completely disagree. Tell me how social diseases and out of wedlock pregnancy aren’t incredibly damaging. Tell me how an entire society of greedy hedonists doesn’t make for a dangerous and negative society from deprioritized children expanding to effect incredible amounts of tax dollars, even if you set aside concern for warped people who will never be happy. You have school shootings, increased police, court and prison costs, increased national medical expenditures from everything like drunk driving car accidents caused by emotionally unhealthy people to widespread social diseases, decreased productivity in the workplace by alcoholics/drug addicts, and increased social costs for the poverty of single parent households, then look to two parent working families doubling the workforce and lowering wages artificially and all the damage that entails in literally hundreds if not thousands of ways. You’re looking for a tree to single out, but it’s the whole forest, that’s why you don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![QueenOfClubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/53a042/32.png) [@QueenOfClubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenOfClubs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/133 "2014-01-03T02:56:01Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > There’s exactly one sentence in Laviticus and I’m not looking it up. Frankly, I don’t know any homosexuals who say they are good and righteous Christians. All I know for sure is that I’m not gay, but I’m not really heterosexual either. Pffft … there is a third road, ya know, and I find both communities hating on me … go figure. You’re not alone. I worry about me and my behavior and I leave others to worry about their own. If people on both sides of that one issue would do the same, wouldn’t society be considerably more pleasant. I do know some Christian gays that say they are happy, seem to be happy and good for them. Personally, I don’t want to spend the rest of my life discussing some strangers’ sex lives right or wrong. I just don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/134 "2014-01-03T03:00:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Premarital sex is certainly not “incredibly damaging to society” Christians believe it is. I have no daughters, so I’m not the person to ask why. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/135 "2014-01-03T03:01:50Z")
> [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > Lol, where did you pull that from? Leviticus? Of course. Leviticus is in the Bible and you were saying society is better if we follow the Bible. > [@](#): > > There is considerable debate about whether Jesus came to fulfill the law or change it… I think Jesus was pretty clear that he came to fulfull the law, not change it. Don’t you Christians read your Bible anymore? > [@](#): > > …and of course you’re talking about Jewish law which non-Jews weren’t liable to live up to in any event… I guess only the non-Jews that don’t want to go to hell are liable. > [@](#): > > Believe it or not, the Bible isn’t a pamphlet attacking homosexuals… Yes it is. > [@](#): > > Unmarried homosexual sex is the exact same sin as heterosexual sex. Right, just like sex you have with a divorcee, even if you marry her. > [@](#): > > The New Testament doesn’t ramble on and on about homosexuals… It does a little, among a lot of other things, like marrying divorced women and having sex with animals. > [@](#): > > For homosexuals to assume any Church or it’s teachings are all about them is highly narcissistic. What homosexuals say that? ---
**Author:** ![QueenOfClubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/53a042/32.png) [@QueenOfClubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenOfClubs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/136 "2014-01-03T03:04:29Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Pffft: > > [Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.](http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-21.htm) > Well suppose the man beats her from time to time and she gets divorced. You really think it’s a sin for another man to marry her and for her to remarry? > I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t want to live in a world that didn’t have promiscuous pre-marital sex. > That’s all great, and abortion helps too, I’m sure, but do you think it wrong for a woman to divorce her husband, say if he is physically abusing her, and marry a kinder man who loves her and can help provide for her her children? > “Suggestions?” Let’s address the situation of domestic abuse which is very serious. In the 50s and up until then, basically divorce was so frowned on many people did NOT get divorced. I think there are pros and cons either way with a lot of hindsight. These women also didn’t suffer as single parents and particularly today be scapegoated, underpaid, guilt tripped for working, guilt tripped for not working or emotionally assaulted on a daily basis for years instead of being abused only in her home. It seems like kind of a toss up and I wouldn’t want to make the choice for another woman. Each woman gets to make their own choice and I feel the same way about abortion. Ideally the abusive spouse (male or female) would be admonished for being in a state of sin and would hopefully confess, seek counsel from the priest and cease to be abusive. But Catholics do another thing to keep this situation from occurring in the first place rather than having to deal with the fallout later. They have pre-Cana classes and workshops that involve an honest and serious approach to marriage in the first place, since in Catholicism marriage is considered a sacrament. Hopefully the pair will know each other very well BEFORE they get married, thus lessening the problem of divorce, single mothers and domestic abuse that leads to those things. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/137 "2014-01-03T03:10:49Z")
> [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > We have the same laws now that correspond with the ten commandments because they are obvious. Really? Which laws are you referring to that enforce [the first half of the list:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments) 1. **No other gods before Me.** Excludes all other religious worship, you heretics. 2. **No graven images.** Penalizes photographers and sculptors. 3. **No taking of Lord’s name in vain.** Don’t swear, asshole. 4. **Keep the Sabbath Holy.** Go to church, heathens. 5. **Honor thy Pa & Ma.** Yo Mama… Not to mention the “no coveting” bullshit. Where are the laws against all these? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/138 "2014-01-03T03:14:16Z")
> [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > Tell me how social diseases and out of wedlock pregnancy aren’t incredibly damaging. So safe sex is cool then? Lesbians must be out of sight godly. > [@](#): > > Tell me how an entire society of greedy hedonists doesn’t make for a dangerous and negative society from deprioritized children expanding to effect incredible amounts of tax dollars, even if you set aside concern for warped people who will never be happy. Boy that almost makes the Crusades look good. :dubious: > [@](#): > > You have school shootings, increased police, court and prison costs, increased national medical expenditures from everything like drunk driving car accidents caused by emotionally unhealthy people to widespread social diseases, decreased productivity in the workplace by alcoholics/drug addicts, and increased social costs for the poverty of single parent households, then look to two parent working families doubling the workforce and lowering wages artificially and all the damage that entails in literally hundreds if not thousands of ways. That all pales in comparison to what Jesus has in store for us don’t it? > [@Jesus](#): > > The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42 ---
**Author:** ![QueenOfClubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/53a042/32.png) [@QueenOfClubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenOfClubs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/139 "2014-01-03T03:17:00Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Of course. Leviticus is in the Bible and you were saying society is better if we follow the Bible. > I think Jesus was pretty clear that he came to fulfull the law, not change it. Don’t you Christians read your Bible anymore? > I guess only the non-Jews that don’t want to go to hell are liable. > Yes it is. > Right, just like sex you have with a divorcee, even if you marry her. > It does a little, among a lot of other things, like marrying divorced women and having sex with animals. > What homosexuals say that? I’m not going to divide all these quotes with little boxes. I’ll address them in order. Jesus says both things, that he came to fulfill the law and in other speeches he said he came to replace the original commandments with his two. Like most contradictory things in the Bible, I suppose you get to choose which part to adhere to. Originally Christianity was only offered as an option to Jews. It was the disciples who later decided to accept pagan converts, not Jesus. If you look at the number in Revelations, the 144,000 specifically refer to 12,000 each of the 12 tribes of Israel. I think the people who get this most wrong are messianic Jews who are neither Jews not Christians. However, that said, any I’ve met are truly lovely individuals and I suspect God will overlook their genuine confusion. You finally get it about sin. Lying is the same as adultery is the same as manslaughter is the same as stealing is the same as… endlessly. In Christianity, everyone is a sinner. It’s the greatest equalizer ever. No one is any ‘better’ than anyone else. That’s why we "judge not, lest ye be judged’. Imo, in person I have yet to see gays hijack every single conversation or discussion of faith, politics or anything else to make every single participant talk about gays’ sex lives. Only internet gays do that. It has even crossed my mind that many gay posters are keeping being gay and annoying others in the public lime light just to make everyone so sick of hearing about it that we all vote it down. At the least, it wouldn’t surprise me if I found out that was true. But internet gays seem to need to take every single subject across the board and use those threads as vehicles to try to force all readers to pat them on the head. I do find that narcissistic and annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076/140 "2014-01-03T03:22:20Z")
> [@QueenOfClubs](#): > > Let’s address the situation of domestic abuse which is very serious. In the 50s and up until then, basically divorce was so frowned on many people did NOT get divorced. I think there are pros and cons either way with a lot of hindsight. Too bad Jesus didn’t think so. > [@](#): > > These women also didn’t suffer as single parents and particularly today be scapegoated, underpaid, guilt tripped for working, guilt tripped for not working or emotionally assaulted on a daily basis for years instead of being abused only in her home. It seems like kind of a toss up and I wouldn’t want to make the choice for another woman. Good thinking, maybe the woman should just let herself get beaten. Especially if marrying a nicer guy means they are adulterers. Better to be beaten on earth than burn in an eternity for sure, I agree, but that only matters if you think the Bible is the word of God. > [@](#): > > Ideally the abusive spouse (male or female) would be admonished for being in a state of sin and would hopefully confess, seek counsel from the priest and cease to be abusive. Ideally yes, but suppose he doesn’t? > [@](#): > > But Catholics do another thing to keep this situation from occurring in the first place rather than having to deal with the fallout later. They have pre-Cana classes and workshops that involve an honest and serious approach to marriage in the first place, since in Catholicism marriage is considered a sacrament. That’s great! If Catholics didn’t also tell people not to wear condoms and rape kids I might think they were pretty cool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-christianity/677076.md?page=8)