# My city never learns **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 19, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976 "2015-11-19T13:59:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/1 "2015-11-19T13:59:31Z")
> **[A Ferry Parked in Maine, Leaving No Wake but Debts (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/us/a-ferry-parked-in-maine-leaving-no-wake-but-debts.html)** > > The Nova Star marked the return of ferries between Portland and Nova Scotia, but two years later, the service has halted and the ship has been ordered seized by a court. This is the 3rd company to run a ferry between Portland, Maine and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. It has been an expensive failure every time. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/2 "2015-11-19T17:58:09Z")
No, don’t let it die! Clap your hands if you believe in ferries! ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/3 "2015-11-19T21:36:18Z")
I live just outside a small town. (It used to a small town, anyway. Suburban growth has made it quite populous, tract home-wise.) The old “downtown” (hah!) is off the beaten path. Not easily accessible. Basically a block and a half of light commercial stuff. Walmart must be sweating over that competition! They keep trying to revive it. Draw more visitors, shoppers. Money keeps getting poured down the drain. A few businesses move in, last a few years. Die. On the one hand: They are building a new municipal complex away from “downtown” and just off the main highway. OTOH, they have a practically new one in “downtown” I have no idea what they are going to do with. Plus they are upgrading sidewalks and such in “downtown”. Why? There are no pedestrians there. I feel so bad for people who get suckered into opening storefront there, just to see their savings vanish. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2015, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/4 "2015-11-20T06:36:08Z")
In about 1985 or so, I took the ‘Bluenose’ ferry to NS. Was most interesting. We drove around for 3-4 days and then took it back. They had many passengers. What has happened to make it unprofitable in today’s world? Too big a ferry and can’t fill it so can’t make $$$$? ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/5 "2015-11-20T13:47:28Z")
Increased border security since 9/11 and a casino less than an hours drive from Portland is what they say killed the ferries. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/6 "2015-11-20T19:53:54Z")
:::: sigh :::::: ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/7 "2015-11-20T21:43:23Z")
Hey, I lived in the Rochester NY area during the “Fast Ferry” to Toronto debacle. Turned out the fuel cost alone made it practibly impossible to break even ! ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/8 "2016-05-03T15:07:52Z")
They’re doing it again. [Coast is clear for The Cat to resume ferry service out of Portland - Portland Press Herald](http://www.pressherald.com/2016/05/02/coast-is-clear-for-the-cat-to-resume-ferry-service-out-of-portland/) Why is it always between the same two towns? Yarmouth, Nova Scotia is a small fishing town. It might make sense if went Portland- Halifax. I’ve never known anyone who wanted to travel to Yarmouth, though. I wonder how long it will be before it fails again. This isn’t even the first time they used the Cat for it. It was an expensive boondoggle. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lisa_Simpson)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/9 "2016-05-03T16:34:06Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > No, don’t let it die! Clap your hands if you believe in ferries! Thank you! This tickled me in a different way than a usual guffaw. Living in BC with all kinds of islands and boats between them (and a government programme known as the [fast ferry fiasco](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Ferry_Scandal)) I plan to work this into conversation whenever I can. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/10 "2016-05-03T18:43:08Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I’ve never known anyone who wanted to travel to Yarmouth, though. Folks have often suggested I go there for the scenery, it must be beautiful. “Watch Yarmouth, boy!”, they all say. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/11 "2016-05-05T02:59:57Z")
LOL’d at that! I lived in Portland for 7 months and only got as far as Peak’s Island. ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/12 "2016-05-05T03:31:36Z")
> [@Ignatz](#): > > LOL’d at that! I lived in Portland for 7 months and only got as far as Peak’s Island. Oh man, I got the _worst_ sunburn on Peak’s Island. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/13 "2016-05-05T03:55:20Z")
I remember once crossing on the last ferry still running between Ohio and West Virginia, chatting with the captain. He pointed down to the river to a bridge that had just been built, eliminating another ferry. I asked him if he ever worked out how long he could run his ferry for the amount of money it took to build the bridge. He said “Yup. Eight hundred years.” ---
**Author:** ![fireman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@fireman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fireman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/14 "2016-05-05T16:26:02Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I remember once crossing on the last ferry still running between Ohio and West Virginia, chatting with the captain. He pointed down to the river to a bridge that had just been built, eliminating another ferry. I asked him if he ever worked out how long he could run his ferry for the amount of money it took to build the bridge. He said “Yup. Eight hundred years.” There is still one (at least) ferry between WV and Ohio. It is 15 miles from the nearest upriver bridge and 20 miles from the nearest downriver bridge. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/15 "2016-05-05T16:51:23Z")
The Jacksonville FL ferry seems to have become a state funded institution. I don’t know how I feel about this. On one hand ferries are neat. On the other hand, how much is this costing the government and tax payers? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/16 "2016-05-05T16:53:19Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I remember once crossing on the last ferry still running between Ohio and West Virginia, chatting with the captain. He pointed down to the river to a bridge that had just been built, eliminating another ferry. I asked him if he ever worked out how long he could run his ferry for the amount of money it took to build the bridge. He said “Yup. Eight hundred years.” What was the carrying capacity of his ferry vs. the carrying capacity of the bridge? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/17 "2016-05-05T19:52:19Z")
There are just some businesses people and governments will keep plowing ahead with no matter how ludicrous it seems, no matter the dismal history of such efforts, no matter how many bodies have already hit the floor. Ferrys are a common fiasco, but really you can see this most anywhere, across all kinds of businesses. I know this because I live in the downtown of a wealthy city with lots of little shopping areas. The turnover of these stores is faster than Joe Louis sparring partners. A clothing store has about a 2/3rds chances of going from GRAND OPENING to SPACE AVAILABLE FOR LEASE in eight, ten months, tops - and yet once they’re done liquidating the assets some other chump opens another. Game and hobby stores rarely last that long. Even pizzerias come and go like leaves in wind. Another one is opening on Kerr Street soon, despite the fact that there are 10 pizza joints within five hundred yards and they are not exactly turning the business away as it is. Why would you open a pizza place in the epicenter of a clear surplus of pizza places? I must assume it’s the same reason you’d try to operate a ferry service in the same place others have failed; because you think YOU are different, and the fact that the conditions are the same isn’t relevant to you. The business operators thinks they’re the most important part of the equation - not the market. They always learn the hard way. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/18 "2016-05-05T20:55:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Why would you open a pizza place in the epicenter of a clear surplus of pizza places? I must assume it’s the same reason you’d try to operate a ferry service in the same place others have failed; because you think YOU are different, and the fact that the conditions are the same isn’t relevant to you. The business operators thinks they’re the most important part of the equation - not the market. > > They always learn the hard way. That’s probably the real reason, although I can see how someone might be seduced by the idea that they have a missing piece of the puzzle that their predecessors didn’t have- better cost control, a brick oven, a faster ferry, etc… But I’d guess that 99% of the time, it’s some massive impersonal market force in operation that means that no pizza place, no matter how authentically Neapolitan, or how cheap will survive, or that no ferry is going to be profitable on that route. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/19 "2016-05-06T00:05:10Z")
I’ve been on the one between Digby and St. John as part of a continuous drive through all the maritime provinces. Is there still no train to Guysborough? Ain’t that a shame? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976/20 "2016-05-06T00:57:26Z")
It’s not that the ferry companies or the city of Portland are stupid. Nova Scotia has been shelling out tens of millions of dollars in subsidies to anyone who will agree to run the service. I think it works out to about $300 or $400 of subsidies _per passenger_ in recent years. Until N.S. comes to its senses, the service will continue. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-city-never-learns/737976.md?page=2)