# My Classical Composer Pantheon **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [March 26, 2022, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729 "2022-03-26T01:26:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/1 "2022-03-26T01:26:27Z")
For unknown reasons I have made a number of arbitrary decisions which I inexplicably want to share with you. I have constructed a Pantheon consisting of a number of tiers, and have slotted my favourite classical composers in it. 3 in Tier 1. 7 in Tier 2. 15 in Tier 3, etc order within a tier is not important. Here we go: Tier 1: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven Tier 2: Handel, Haydn, Schubert, Chopin, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky Tier 3: Vivaldi, Rossini, Verdi Bizet, Debussy, Ravel Mendelssohn, Wagner, Mahler Elgar, Vaughan-Williams Grieg, Sibelius Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich I have spoilered Tier 3 in case you want to guess my thinking. There are 3 Italians, 3 French, 3 Germans, 2 English, 2 Scandinavians, 2 Russians. Some notables that fall into Tier 4 are Rimsky-Korsakov, Schumann, Liszt, Saint-Saens So, what are your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/2 "2022-03-26T02:15:00Z")
Here are my tiered favorites: Tier 1: Beethoven, Mozart, Bach Tier 2: Liszt, Chopin Tier 3: Rachmaninoff, Alkan, Scriabin, Prokofiev Tier 4: Schubert, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Saint-Saens, Handel Tier 5: Grieg, Ravel, Shostakovich, Haydn, Barber, Gershwin I’m partial to piano composers My favorite contemporary concert pianist is Yuja Wang. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/3 "2022-03-26T02:19:04Z")
Me, I’d put innovators who made a path for future composers on top: Henry Purcell, Mozart, Debussy, Mahler and Stravinsky, _who I enjoy_ (sorry, Charles Ives). Then comes the great composers to enjoy listening to: Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Barber, etc ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/4 "2022-03-26T02:35:15Z")
Everyone always forgets about Faure. John Field, too. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/5 "2022-03-26T03:05:46Z")
I have little knowledge of serious classical music of any era, but I do like all the classical music that occurs outside of classrooms and formal study, the stuff that one hears without trying to study Baroque or Classical music. That being said, this poster seems to indicate that Carl Czerny influenced quite a few players and composers: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Carl-Czerny-piano-heritage-tree.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Carl-Czerny-piano-heritage-tree.jpg) Over the course of time, my household managed to accumulate a number of technique books that have the same exercises from very simple all in quarter notes – through to quite complex (for me and mine that include e and a counting and I believe two notes per each count). I have never heard of him being considered a great composer, but he did rub shoulders with some few masters I believe. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/6 "2022-03-26T03:41:24Z")
> [@K364](#): > > 3 in Tier 1. > 7 in Tier 2. > 15 in Tier 3, etc Tier 1: Rimsky-Korsakov, Wagner, Beethoven Tier 2: Tchaikovsky, Vivaldi, Stokowski, Holst, Grieg, Vaughn Williams, Grofe Tier 3: Sibelius, Mussorgsky, Verdi, Borodin, Copland, Debussy, Ravel, Rachmaninoff, Ravel, J. Strauss, Handel, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Victoria, Purcell ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/7 "2022-03-26T03:45:21Z")
Lots of y’all like Mozart a shitload better than I do. We’re singing his Requiem this spring, and I have to admit it’s a phenomenal piece of work. But he put out oceans of utter crap, and there are only a few pieces of his that I like. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/8 "2022-03-26T03:56:34Z")
> [@K364](#): > > So, what are your thoughts? If there is a general consensus among classical music fans and critics, your ranking matches looks to me like it matches that consensus pretty closely. And so, while I totally respect it, I would find it a little more interesting if you had included at least one or two relatively obscure or underrated composers whom you, personally, love. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/9 "2022-03-26T04:43:26Z")
re: > [@AHunter3](#): > > Lots of y’all like Mozart a shitload better than I do. > > We’re singing his Requiem this spring, and I have to admit it’s a phenomenal piece of work. But he put out oceans of utter crap, and there are only a few pieces of his that I like. ^^^ I went back to see if I could delete this but waited too long. I apologize for peeing in the thread. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Famous\_Burrito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_famous_burrito/32/3954_2.png) [@El\_Famous\_Burrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Famous_Burrito)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/10 "2022-03-26T04:46:53Z")
> 3 Germans > … > Mendelssohn, Wagner, Mahler I had always thought of Mahler as being Austrian. But looking it up just now, I see that it is complicated. (Austrian, German, Czech? I suppose all could make some claim. But I’ll stick with Austrian!) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/11 "2022-03-26T06:22:14Z")
No Renaissance composers at all? Palestrina, Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Gabrieli, Allegri, Lassus, Victoria, Tallis, Byrd, Gibbons… ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/12 "2022-03-26T11:42:32Z")
If we’re talking personal favourites in terms of emotional impact, for me the top tier would be Schubert, Brahms, Sibelius. It seems to me there’s an underlying common element that I can’t quite find the word for - melancholy? wistful? elegiac? Which is not to say I dismiss the importance of most of the rest or the pleasure they give (except maybe most of Liszt and Percy Grainger). BBC Radio 3 has done a good job of opening my ears and mind over the years. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/13 "2022-03-26T13:17:20Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > No Renaissance composers at all? > > Palestrina, Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Gabrieli, Allegri, Lassus, Victoria, Tallis, Byrd, Gibbons… [quote=“AHunter3”] Tier 2: Tchaikovsky, **Vivaldi** , Stokowski, Holst, Grieg, Vaughn Williams, Grofe Tier 3: Sibelius, Mussorgsky, Verdi, Borodin, Copland, Debussy, Ravel, Rachmaninoff, Ravel, J. Strauss, Handel, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, **Victoria** , **Purcell** ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/14 "2022-03-26T13:24:19Z")
My test for composers is simply how I’d feel if all of their compositions would suddenly be lost. In other words, I look mainly at the best compositions, while taking into account also the number of good compositions. I don’t care if they also produced a lot of dross. From that perspective, looking at the OP, I agree with Tier 1 (would be hard to dispute). Although for me Brahms is on the boundary between both tiers. For Tier 2 I’d lose Chopin and Dvorak, who wrote music that I like but in my mind not really great music (with the exception of Dvorak’s Cello concerto). I’m not entirely sure about Haydn either: I find a lot of his work very good but not great. Possibly I’d add Mahler who I feel is more deserving of a spot here, and I’d consider Shostakovich and Vivaldi as well. Both have written a number of excellent works. Tier 3 for me consists mostly of composers who have written only a few great works among many more mediocre or serviceable ones. Schumann and Bruckner, Elgar, but also Bruch or Prokoviev, Franck, Richard Strauss, Rachmaninov. I’d really miss their well-known works, but those are rare stand-outs in the entire oeuvre. Stravinsky is a hard one to classify because he is unquestionably a great composer, but he impresses me more than that he touches me. I’m not much of an opera fan, hence cannot fairly rate Bizet and Verdi. So I’d get to Tier 1: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms Tier 2: Mahler, Shostakovich, Vivaldi, Handel, Schubert, Tchaikovsky Tier 3: Dvorak, Grieg, Schumann, Bruckner, Elgar, Bruch, Prokoviev, Franck, Richard Strauss, Rachmaninov and many more. I’m not sure who I should put in Tier 4. Possibly I should differentiate and only put in Tier 3 composers who have shown good workmanship generally, which probably would move Rachmaninov down a tier. Saint-Saens would for me be in Tier 3. Compared to the OPs list I’d remove Vaughn-Williams and Liszt who I wouldn’t miss at all. Looking at the other posts: I’m not sure about the general output of a lot of early composers and therefore hesitate where to put them. I know only Pergolesi’s _Stabat Mater_ which of course is as close to heaven as you can get, but as I don’t know his other work I’d hesitate where to put him. A lot of the late romantic and modern composers mentioned by the others would be Tier 3 or 4 to me. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/15 "2022-03-26T14:40:08Z")
> [@Tusculan](#): > > I’m not entirely sure about Haydn either: I find a lot of his work very good but not great. Don’t underestimate the value of writing a lot of very good work. I love Haydn because he wrote so many different pieves that I enjoy listening to. In my mind, he’s like a prolific author who can always be counted on for readible, enjoyable entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/16 "2022-03-26T19:18:23Z")
Just feel obligated to point out a certain Eurocentrism in the responses… (unless that is the intended scope) ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/17 "2022-03-27T01:53:31Z")
If the tiers were for single compositions, Beethoven would be my first slot of Tier 1 by a wide margin with Symphony #9. It’s as though he said, _screw it, I’m going to break all the rules and create the greatest artistic masterpiece of all time_. And he did. My Slot 2, Tier 1 would be something by J.S. Bach, and slot 3, something by Mozart. So many pieces to choose from, not sure which I’d pick yet. Depends on my mood. Slot 1, Tier 2 is Rachmaninoff’s 2nd concerto (Romantic era at its finest). Slot 2, Tier 2 is Liszt’s 2nd concerto (it’s a sleeper, [give it a listen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuhzdr1lJzY&list=RDZuhzdr1lJzY&index=1) if you’re not familiar with it). Gershwin’s Rhapsody in Blue is Slot 3, Tier 2. His fusion of classical and jazz in that piece is mesmerizing. I prefer composers who were virtuosos with their instruments of choice and it shows in their compositions. That’s why I place Liszt so high. His body of work both touches and amazes me. He was the first and best longhair rock star. Sorry, Beatles. Beethoven and Mozart were both top piano virtuosos of their time. Mozart was a child prodigy, playing and composing from age 3. His genius is self-evident and breathtaking. Beethoven was of course also a musical genius, but it wasn’t innate, like Mozart. Ludwig had to work at it, but ultimately paid off in spades. So sad he and Wolfgang lived such tortured lives, after giving so much to all mankind. And Bach? Well, he’s Bach, what more can one say, except _ah Bach_? There’s a reason Beethoven, Bach, and Mozart are the _Big 3_—they are the undisputed greatest of the greats. The Goats. I don’t believe their greatness will ever be surpassed. Not on this planet anyway. With regard to performers, some musicians are technical wizards, others excel at emotional depth. Very few master both sides of the coin, except, IMHO, V. Horowitz, and Y. Wang. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/18 "2022-03-27T05:48:22Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Tier 1: Rimsky-Korsakov, Wagner, Beethoven > > Tier 2: Tchaikovsky, Vivaldi, Stokowski, Holst, Grieg, Vaughn Williams, Grofe > > Tier 3: Sibelius, Mussorgsky, Verdi, Borodin, Copland, Debussy, Ravel, Rachmaninoff, Ravel, J. Strauss, Handel, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Victoria, Purcell I forgot Mahler, and I think I’ll have to bump Borodin off to insert Mahler instead. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/19 "2022-03-27T07:47:40Z")
> [@Tusculan](#): > > Compared to the OPs list I’d remove Vaughn-Williams and Liszt who I wouldn’t miss at all. Without Liszt, I am afraid Bugs Bunny would have been a very marginal piano player, same for Tom & Jerry. Since cartoons were among my first experiences with classical music, I have to insist that the piece that is not just background but actual substance must be very highly placed. I believe _The Rabbit of Seville_ and _What’s Opera, Doc?_ are the only other cartoons where the music is the whole point of the work, but neither of them had as much impact upon me as Rhapsody #2 did. The OP however placed the composers that inspired these two works in his third tier, while Liszt only made tier #4. Perhaps the Op, and most of the rest of the posters in this thread are not as influenced by children’s cartoons as I am which would make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729/20 "2022-03-27T08:31:09Z")
Nothing wrong with Bugs, Tom and Jerry introducing you to classical music. Cartoons can have a lifelong effect on young, malleable minds. I recall those particular cartoons inspiring me, too. Speaking of Hungarian Rhapsody #2, Horowitz’s 1953 performance of it is jaw dropping, particularly the cadenza. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/v95I6kGghmk/hqdefault.jpg "Liszt-Horowitz Hungarian Rhapsody No 2 Horowitz Rec 1953") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v95I6kGghmk) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-classical-composer-pantheon/961729.md?page=2)