# My Dad was with Glenn Miller in his final moments **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 9, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509 "2009-07-09T23:57:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/21 "2010-08-16T05:02:45Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > In the interests of complete historical correctness I’ll note that the Australian armed forces did not participate in the European theatre at all, they were a tad busy with the Japanese at the time. There were individual Australians in the British armed forces of course, but the Australian units were all withdrawn from North Africa back to the Pacific. Not _quite_ true - there were plenty of RAAF units. Not just individual airmen serving within the RAF; there were entire RAAF squadrons. [Example.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._460_Squadron_RAAF) Also, the North African campaigns count as part of the “European Theatre” in that the enemy forces were German and Italian. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/22 "2010-08-16T06:43:34Z")
I guess I was subconsciously excluding the RAAF as they were not part of the invasion and battle of France per se, although granted they did support the ground forces at some points. I was specifically thinking of the ground forces of course, as an air force never liberated anyone. North Africa not being in, you know, \*Europe, \*I think I’ll stand by that claim 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/23 "2010-08-16T16:18:21Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Not sure about the AAF guys, but [Paul Tanner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tanner), now 92, is the last survivor of Glenn’s prewar band. Paul also played the theremin on the Beach Boys’ _Good Vibrations_! he played the tannerin which is different from a theremin ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/24 "2010-08-16T20:20:10Z")
A bit irrelavent, but I used to live either in the house or in the house next door to where Glenn Miller lived in the forties. A lady across the road who had moved into her house as a young girl when it was built in Edwardian times remembered him living there, but couldn’t recall which house it was. After the the start of the war, a good part of the BBC was ‘evacuated’ from London to avoid the anticipated bombings. The ‘Light Entertainment’ section was relocated to Bushmead House, fifty odd yards from my former home. A lot of Glenn Miller concerts were broadcast from the Bedford Corn Exchange. Although Bedford is only fifty miles north of London, it was never targeted in the war. Hitler gave the town some trees as a gift in the mid thirties and some say that was the reason. I find that hard believe as, although the town had a couple of prominent engineering firms, it was essentially a rather unremarkable english market town. Another resident told me of the times when the German bombing raids passed over the town, presumably on their way to attack the heavy industry of the West Midlands or the North West. She told of how the hum used to fill the air and how the ground would seem to shake. Glenn Miller took off from the airfield at Twinwoods, a couple of miles north of the town. An annual Jazz/Swing festival now takes place there each year. Although not Bedford Born and Bred, most Bedfordians consider Glenn Miller as an ‘adopted son’ ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/25 "2010-08-17T03:42:16Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > North Africa not being in, you know, \*Europe, \*I think I’ll stand by that claim China, Burma, and India aren’t anywhere near the Pacific Ocean, either, but they’re part of the “Pacific Theatre” because those campaigns were part of the war against the Japanese Empire. North Africa wasn’t a separate conflict from the war in Europe, it was part of the same war. “European Theatre” and “Pacific Theatre” are not geographic terms, they’re shorthand terms for “the War against Nazi Germany and its allies” and “the War against Imperial Japan”. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/26 "2010-08-17T14:37:58Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > China,… aren’t anywhere near the Pacific Ocean, either, Huh? [Then what ocean are the East China Sea, Yellow Sea, and South China Sea part of?](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html) ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/27 "2010-08-17T21:57:36Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > > > I have a question or two about part of John Corrado’s column: > > > > I’m not clear about the part I bolded. They didn’t report the plane to _anyone?_ Were they afraid of punishment, or was there another reason? If nothing else, they certainly should have reported it to a civilian agency. > > > > Also, was the area of the bomb dump too wide for a salvage or would the dumped ordinance hamper the search for the plane? I’ve always been a bit fascinated by the story since hearing Glenn Miller’s music for the first time, and I’d appreciate any insight. > > In both the RAF and USAAF, there was a regular post-action debriefing process after completed missions. If an individual plane aborted during the mission, they were also debriefed, but if the entire mission was aborted, then the debriefing would be abbreviated or just skipped altogether. The mission that Shaw described would have been one of the latter cases. As **John Corrado** said, they never engaged the Luftwaffe nor passed over enemy-held territory, and the chain of command already knew the reason for their turning around. Therefore, there was no military intelligence to be gained (it was normally assumed) by engaging in the debriefing process. > > As for reporting to civilian authorities: why? These were military aviators, during wartime, with no contact with the civilian aviation regulators. In fact, the civilian aviation regulators in England during the war were essentially an afterthought in most areas, since there was no meaningful civilian aviation. > > The bomb dump areas are just what they sound like - large areas where ordnance was disposed of. Not every bomb dumped there armed and exploded on the way down, so there is a strong possibility of unexploded ordnance. This makes any recovery effort very dangerous. I supposed a high-resolution sonar scan of the area is feasible, but you’d have to find some-one willing to fund that. Thanks for your answer. I don’t think I’ve ever waited a year to have a question addressed before. 🙂 I understand that under normal circumstances, the briefing would be cut short or not held, but in this situation, the pilots _witnessed a plane going into the channel._ Wouldn’t this have been reported, so that squadrons could have taken procedures to find out who had gone down in the plane? If they had, a longstanding mystery might have been solved before it even arose. I just can’t get my head around the fact that inadvertently knocking an airplane out of the sky would go unreported by everyone, no matter how afraid they might have been of the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/28 "2010-08-17T22:05:00Z")
Oh, and by the way, that part of the question claiming that David Niven’s sole job in the military involved setting up appearances is _way_ off. Niven was a commando who saw action in Normandy and other places. A REMF he was not. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/29 "2010-08-18T14:08:24Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Thanks for your answer. I don’t think I’ve ever waited a year to have a question addressed before. 🙂 > > I understand that under normal circumstances, the briefing would be cut short or not held, but in this situation, the pilots _witnessed a plane going into the channel._ Wouldn’t this have been reported, so that squadrons could have taken procedures to find out who had gone down in the plane? If they had, a longstanding mystery might have been solved before it even arose. I just can’t get my head around the fact that inadvertently knocking an airplane out of the sky would go unreported by everyone, no matter how afraid they might have been of the consequences. It wasn’t reported in a **formal debriefing**. It no doubt was reported, but since there was no formal office during the war to collect all reports of planes going down, and all reports of planes missing, there was nowhere to send the report where it would have been matched up with that particular missing plane. The report no doubt went up the chain of command until it reached someone who said “I don’t know who to send this to. I’ll just sit on it until someone asks if anyone knows about a missing plane.” There is a case of a US sub that was sunk by a US or Allied ship (I don’t remember the details), that wasn’t discovered until long after the war. Missing sub… report of attack on a Japanese sub… Happened all the time during the war. It wasn’t until the Navy started looking at all the records to try to figure out what all happened during the war for the official histories, that the connection between the two was made. Same thing would have happened here… This is just a case of the two reports never winding up in the same person’s hands, because there was no formal procedure that would have done so. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/30 "2010-08-18T14:39:48Z")
I thought Glenn Miller choked on Jimi Hendrix’s drug induced vomit?? ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/31 "2010-08-18T15:39:23Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > It wasn’t reported in a **formal debriefing**. It no doubt was reported, but since there was no formal office during the war to collect all reports of planes going down, and all reports of planes missing, there was nowhere to send the report where it would have been matched up with that particular missing plane. The report no doubt went up the chain of command until it reached someone who said “I don’t know who to send this to. I’ll just sit on it until someone asks if anyone knows about a missing plane.” Yes, exactly what I was going to say. > [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > There is a case of a US sub that was sunk by a US or Allied ship (I don’t remember the details), that wasn’t discovered until long after the war. Missing sub… report of attack on a Japanese sub. You may be thinking of the [second USS _Seawolf_](http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/s9/seawolf-i.htm) although the loss of the _Seawolf_ was confirmed during the war: > [@](#): > > Seawolf and Narwhal (SS-167) exchanged radar recognition signals at 0756 on 3 October in the Morotai area. Shortly thereafter, a 7th Fleet task group was attacked by a Japanese submarine. Shelton (DE-407) was torpedoed, and Rowell (DE-403) stood by to search for the enemy. Two planes were sent from the carrier Midway (CVE-63) to assist in the search. One of the planes sighted a submarine submerging and dropped two bombs on it even though it was in a safety zone for American submarines. The site was marked by dye and Rowell steamed to the area, made sound contact, and attacked with “hedgehogs.” The second attack was followed by underwater explosions, and debris rose to the surface. > > No further contact was made with Seawolf, and her position would have placed her in the area where the plane and Rowell made their attacks. On 28 December 1944, Seawolf was announced overdue frompatrol and presumed lost. She was struck from the Navy list on 20 January 1945. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/32 "2010-08-18T17:30:38Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > I thought Glenn Miller choked on Jimi Hendrix’s drug induced vomit?? That’s absolutely ridiculous, and you should be ashamed of promulgating such nonsense. . . . It was ham-sandwich-induced. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/33 "2010-08-18T20:37:37Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > You may be thinking of the [second USS _Seawolf_](http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/s9/seawolf-i.htm) although the loss of the _Seawolf_ was confirmed during the war: > > > [@](#): > > > > Seawolf and Narwhal (SS-167) exchanged radar recognition signals at 0756 on 3 October in the Morotai area. Shortly thereafter, a 7th Fleet task group was attacked by a Japanese submarine. Shelton (DE-407) was torpedoed, and Rowell (DE-403) stood by to search for the enemy. Two planes were sent from the carrier Midway (CVE-63) to assist in the search. One of the planes sighted a submarine submerging and dropped two bombs on it even though it was in a safety zone for American submarines. The site was marked by dye and Rowell steamed to the area, made sound contact, and attacked with “hedgehogs.” The second attack was followed by underwater explosions, and debris rose to the surface. > > > > No further contact was made with Seawolf, and her position would have placed her in the area where the plane and Rowell made their attacks. On 28 December 1944, Seawolf was announced overdue frompatrol and presumed lost. She was struck from the Navy list on 20 January 1945. Loss confirmed, yes, but not necessarily “loss to friendly fire confirmed”. That may or may not be the one I was thinking of, but the one I was thinking of, IIRC, was not listed as probable friendly fire, until several years after the war by the JANAC (Joint Army Navy somethingorother Commission). I may not be recalling correctly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/34 "2010-08-19T09:55:30Z")
> [@RiverRunner](#): > > > [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > > > I thought Glenn Miller choked on Jimi Hendrix’s drug induced vomit?? > > That’s absolutely ridiculous, and you should be ashamed of promulgating such nonsense. > . . . It was ham-sandwich-induced. Sorry to disappoint you, but the ham sandwich incident happened to Mama Cass. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/35 "2010-08-19T10:31:27Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > Sorry to disappoint you, but the ham sandwich incident happened to Mama Cass. I hear that when Glenn Miller’s plane went down it made a great _whooooosh_ noise. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/36 "2010-08-19T14:59:40Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > [The] ham sandwich incident happened to Mama Cass. And just think, if she had given that ham sandwich to Karen Carpenter, they’d probably both still be alive. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/37 "2010-08-20T02:45:22Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > > [@Floater](#): > > > > [The] ham sandwich incident happened to Mama Cass. > > And just think, if she had given that ham sandwich to Karen Carpenter, they’d probably both still be alive. Truly one of the great lines of the last 20 years. Of course, Mama Cass could have done that, but it would not have stopped her heart attack. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/38 "2010-08-20T03:28:02Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > I thought Glenn Miller choked on Jimi Hendrix’s drug induced vomit?? How can you tell? You can’t dust for vomit, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/39 "2010-08-20T18:21:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Here is pretty exhaustive list of [musicians that played with Glenn Miller](http://www.bigbandlibrary.com/glennmiller.html)at one time or another, though it may be incomplete: Yes, is incomplete. 🙂 Sorta. That is, if ‘sitting in’ counts 😉 I have a photo, one my wife’s keepsakes, of her father sitting in with Glenn Miller and his band. Mind you, he was hardly a renowned musician, accomplished though he was, but there’s no mistaking him - The only Navy uniform amongst a bunch of AAF types. Glenn went to ETO with the Army, whilst my father-in-law went chasing about the Pacific as a Navy musician. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509/40 "2010-08-21T08:02:16Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > > [@Floater](#): > > > > [The] ham sandwich incident happened to Mama Cass. > > And just think, if she had given that ham sandwich to Karen Carpenter, they’d probably both still be alive. I stole that and used it on Face Book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-dad-was-with-glenn-miller-in-his-final-moments/502509.md?page=3)