# My fellow blacks: You are not Native American **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 3, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889 "2008-09-03T16:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/161 "2011-04-17T20:18:35Z")
Yeah, except you admitted you didn’t know if it was fact or not. So calling bullshit on someone when you are not in possession of the facts is really a reflection of your issues, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/162 "2011-04-17T20:57:45Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > What makes you sure he cheated w/ a woman? I don’t think teh gays existed back then. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/163 "2011-04-17T21:04:04Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > HA! I knew just from looking at it that this was a zombie, and also who had bumped it. I’m going to start fitting the words “Latin” and “Chile” into as many posts as possible to see how indiscriminate he gets with that search feature… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/164 "2011-04-17T21:15:03Z")
Claiming Indian\* ancestry: I noticed it was fairly common when I was living around Denver. In fact I remember my brother claiming he was part indian. He was anonymously adopted, so when I was young assumed this did not apply to me, and when I got older just thought it was his way of dealing with not knowing what his real ancestry might be. When I moved to Albuquerque, not so many, but those that do are for more adamant about it. A couple of factors are a play: There is a large REAL Indian populace that is likely to call you on it…what tribe, what clan, etc. etc. Almost everyone knows several Indians, and none of them are even remotely like the romanticized “noble savages” of popular fiction, and being pueblo Indians, never rode horses, hunted buffalo, etc. New Mexico was early settled by Spanish Explorers and Missionaries. Many people carry the surnames of the men who came north with Coranado. They will tell you they are Spanish. To claim Indian blood is essentially to admit to being Mexican. The Indian ancestry posers are mostly new-agers concentrated around Sante Fe and Taos…into the whole mother earth, father sky thing. I will also say that it is not just an American thing. Every single European I have ever met shows absolute fascination with native american culture…many to the point of obsession. I have no doubt that could they plausably do so many would claim indian blood. \*of the dozen or more Indians I know, I have yet to hear one refer to themselves or each other as Native American. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucky_13/32/13209_2.png) [@Lucky\_13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky_13)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/165 "2011-04-17T21:45:58Z")
I can’t claim Native American ancestry, as I was not born in North America. I do have Spanish ancestors as well as ancestors from the tribes that were native to Central America, as do many people living there now. I actually have a great-great-grandfather who emigrated from Ireland sometime in the late 19th century, but about all that’s going to get me is maybe a free Guinness on St. Patrick’s Day. My grandpa on Dad’s side was adopted, so no one knows where his ancestors are from. I like talking about it, but it really makes no difference as to who I am as a person. My ex felt the same - his ancestors immigrated from eastern Europe, Germany and northern Ireland, and he looks European, but when asked where he was from, he would sometimes reply, “Kenya.”😃 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/166 "2011-04-17T21:49:26Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > What makes you sure he cheated w/ a woman? Because if he were cheating with a man “distant cousins” couldn’t possibly have resulted from it? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/167 "2011-04-17T22:07:29Z")
Bisexuals didn’t exist in the 1800s? ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/168 "2011-04-17T22:27:10Z")
If I had a nickle for everyone who has claimed to be part Cherokee, come on. I mean those Cherokee women must have got around. I’ve discarded women on dating sites for this claim alone. I take a look at her profile and then gaze at her picture and she is whiter than my Eastern European ass. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/169 "2011-04-17T22:48:21Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I wonder if the reason why “It’s always Cherokee” is that they were the tribe that went to the most effort to “act white”. I think it’s that they are by far the largest tribe in America (currently anyway). And they are quite famous as a people due to their prominence in anti-NA US government policy, Trail of Tears, famous leaders, etc. Also they are located in South-Eastern states, where a majority of the African American population was and is. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/170 "2011-04-17T23:01:07Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So you admit you don’t know if they do or don’t have such ancestry but are certain they are claiming so out of shame of being black? > > Projection. Text book. > > So you’re really annoyed by people volunteering this info when you didn’t ask? Really? Are you equally annoyed when people volunteer other unrequested information? Or just this one that touches your issue? I dont know if it’s projection, but I can hear the cracks in your ego. What he is growling about is the tedious habit (and a particular recuring trait in middle classes and lower middle classes, by my account) of forging themselves an imaginary genalogy just to feel like they have something “special”. Other posters have already linked this to reincarnation freaks all believing themselves to have been a courtesan under Louis XIV or some Egyptian High Priest (for some funny reason, all past female incarnations have strong feminist tendencies, and were thinking out of the box centuries ago). In general people babbling about their genalogy are people to be avoided. When you have to look back centuries ago along your supposed bloodline to find any traces of awesomeness, you might ass well admit to yourself, and the world, that you just plain suck. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/171 "2011-04-17T23:43:02Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It’s possible that I have a distant Native American cousin out there. I have documented proof that my great grandfather was cheating on his wife when they lived in the Dakota Territory in about 1883. Not too many white wimmins out there at that time. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Because if he were cheating with a man “distant cousins” couldn’t possibly have resulted from it? \*\*Chefguy \*\*doesn’t say they do; he just says the cheating was documented. It wasn’t just \*white \*wimmin that were scarce in the Territories… Wait - **Chefguy** , was this branch of your family Scottish by any chance? I may have another hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/172 "2011-04-17T23:43:23Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I have a theory that a lot of white people who claim Native American ancestry actually have (if there’s any basis to non Euro ancestry at all) black ancestry. Admittedly my sample group is small- my family and a couple of others- but also Interesting theory, but doesn’t match the truth. For once, mixtures between Europeans and Indians are a lote less “visible” than mixtures between Blacks and Whites. > [@Sampiro](#): > > \*There was a lot more racial mixing between whites and blacks than there was between whites and Indians in the original 13 colonies and territory Well, most Black americans are around 1/4 White, but they are still considered different. > [@Sampiro](#): > > \*Many if not most free (or escaped) blacks who were light enough crossed the color line if they could and sometimes claimed native blood to explain a broad nose or darker-than-Euro skin or coarse hair It was a hard job for mixed AfroEuropeans to fool people, but yes, that happened. But only when people had very little Black to start with. > [@Sampiro](#): > > So it’s very possible that even Pocahontas or the Creek chieftains or others who were known to have intermarried with white settlers already had some black ancestry. And we know that by the time slaves were already White looking, isn’t? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/173 "2011-04-17T23:43:43Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > I think it’s that they are by far the largest tribe in America (currently anyway). The Cherokee are the biggest per census data. But there’s something really intriguing about said data that is very relevant to this thread. The number of people claiming Cherokee as their sole heritage in 2000, ( 281,069 ) is only slightly larger than the next largest tribe, the Navajo ( 269,202 ). But the number of people claiming _partial_ Cherokee heritage ( 729,533 ) is ~2.5x those claiming partial Navajo heritage ( 298,179 ). Given the discussion here it makes one just a bit wary about those census figures ;). ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/174 "2011-04-17T23:45:16Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The Cherokee are the biggest per census data. But there’s something really intriguing about said data that is very relevant to this thread. The number of people claiming Cherokee as their sole heritage in 2000, ( 281,069 ) is only slightly larger than the next largest tribe, the Navajho ( 269,202 ). But the number of people claiming _partial_ Cherokee heritage ( 729,533 ) is ~2.5x those claiming partial Navajho heritage ( 298,179 ). > > Given the discussion here it makes one just a bit wary about those census figures ;). Are you suggesting Indian census figures are wrong?? You take that back! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/175 "2011-04-17T23:53:19Z")
[http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5387937-whos-blacker-snoop-dog-or-charles-barkley-dna-testing-for-race-popular-on-tv-programs](http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5387937-whos-blacker-snoop-dog-or-charles-barkley-dna-testing-for-race-popular-on-tv-programs) Meh. Some black Americans have Native American ancestry, some don’t. Nothing to get excited about either way. > [@](#): > > Rapper, Snoop Dogg > > 0% East Asian > > 23% Native American > > 6% European > > 71% Sub-Saharan African > > Charles Barkley’s DNA results: > > 0% East Asian > > 14% Native American > > 11% European > > 75% Sub-Saharan African ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/176 "2011-04-18T00:02:55Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > If they’re related to G3 through his wife Queen Charlotte they’ve probably [got black blood](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/royalfamily.html), as does the British royal family today. > I have a theory that a lot of white people who claim Native American ancestry actually have (if there’s any basis to non Euro ancestry at all) black ancestry. Admittedly my sample group is small- my family and a couple of others- but also > > \*There was a lot more racial mixing between whites and blacks than there was between whites and Indians in the original 13 colonies and territory > > \*There were unions (marital or just procreative) of blacks and natives > > \*Many if not most free (or escaped) blacks who were light enough crossed the color line if they could and sometimes claimed native blood to explain a broad nose or darker-than-Euro skin or coarse hair > > Also, there have been Africans in America reproducing with Indians since 1526 when the African slaves of the Spanish builders of [San Miguel de Gualdape](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Miguel_de_Gualdape) in what’s now South Carolina said adios when their masters abandoned the colony. Accounts vary as to whether the slaves revolted, ran away or were intentionally left behind due to limited room on the evacuation ships, but it’s relatively certain they intermarried with the natives. (Many natives found black skin [and these being Africans as opposed to biracial that accounted for many if not most slaves centuries later would have been very black indeed] not only aesthetically appealing but religiously significant in a good way.) It’s not certain how many slaves were left behind, but at least a few dozen, and while that may not sound like many anybody who has studied genealogy knows that in 2 centuries a small group can result in thousands of descendants. This being in South Carolina, those genes would have spread all up and down the Atlantic seaboard, and the children of African-Native unions would probably have been much healthier than most since Africans had as much resistance to Old World diseases as Europeans. > So it’s very possible that even Pocahontas or the Creek chieftains or others who were known to have intermarried with white settlers already had some black ancestry. Tri racial isolate groups often call themselves Indians, like the Lumbee Indians. DNA studies have revealed a substantial amount of African ancestry in the Lumbee and other TRI groups. When members of these groups married with whites, they probably didn’t identify themselves as “black” and might not have known the source of their darker skin. This wasn’t just vanity, trying to give oneself a better pedigree. The difference between being seen as “black” versus “Indian” could mean something close to life and death. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/177 "2011-04-18T00:22:55Z")
[QUOTE=pinguin] And we know that by the time slaves were already White looking, isn’t? [/QUOTE] ¿Que? [QUOTE=Belowjob2.0] This wasn’t just vanity, trying to give oneself a better pedigree. The difference between being seen as “black” versus “Indian” could mean something close to life and death. [/QUOTE] Certainly between freedom and slavery. Some [Black Seminoles](http://www.johnhorse.com/) successfully fought a rebellion to be counted as Indians so that they could go west- it’s something when the forced removal west was considered a victory. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/178 "2011-04-18T00:30:42Z")
Yes, everybody knows Seminoles were a mixed bunch. But believing that the Powatan and other tribes at contact were also mixed like Seminoles, I believe it is science fiction. Something like the Black Olmecs, or the Black Vikings, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/179 "2011-04-18T01:10:49Z")
Rather than calling folks out on their claims of Native American ancestry, wouldn’t it be simpler to point out just how many people in the US do have some NA ancestry, and that it’s therefore nothing special? For what it’s worth, I’m 1/64 Shawnee, and that and a quarter would get me a phone call, or would if there were still any pay phones around. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889/180 "2011-04-18T01:34:59Z")
I found a Wiki article on something called [Blood quantum laws](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws), which I had never heard of before. Seems the qualifiers that can get you accepted into a tribal organization can vary a lot. > [@](#): > > American Indian tribes located on reservations tend to have higher blood quantum requirements for membership than those located off reservation. …[reference to table] [O]ver 85 percent of tribes requiring more than a one-quarter blood quantum for membership are reservation based, as compared with less than 64 percent of those having no minimum requirement. Tribes on reservations have seemingly been able to maintain exclusive membership by setting higher blood quanta, since the reservation location has generally served to isolate the tribe from non-Indians and intermarriage with them. > [@](#): > > Many Native American tribes continue to employ blood quantum in current tribal laws to determine who is eligible for membership or citizenship in the tribe or Native American nation. These often require a minimum degree of blood relationship and often an ancestor listed in a specific tribal [census](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census) from the late 19th century or early 20th century. The [Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Band_of_Cherokee_Indians) of [North Carolina](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina), for example, require an ancestor listed in the 1924 Baker census and a minimum of 1/16 Cherokee blood inherited from their ancestor(s) on that roll. Meanwhile the Western Cherokee require applicants to descend from an ancestor in the 1906 [Dawes roll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Rolls) (direct lineal ancestry), but the [Cherokee Nation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Nation) imposes no minimum blood quantum requirement. The [United Keetoowah Band](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Keetoowah_Band) requires a minimum 1/4 blood quantum. In that article was mention of the program called [African America Lives,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Lives) which I am going to have to dig up and watch. They included some information on this issue: > [@](#): > > With the help of geneticists, the historian [Henry Louis Gates, Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Louis_Gates,_Jr.) put African American ancestry in these terms: > > [ul] > [li]58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5 percent European ancestry (equivalent of one great-grandparent);[/li][li]19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25 percent European ancestry (equivalent of one grandparent);[/li][li]1 percent of African Americans have at least 50 percent European ancestry (equivalent of one parent); and[/li][li]5 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5 percent Native American ancestry (equivalent to one great-grandparent).[/li][/ul] Thought that was interesting. In the article posted upthread, it said that African-Americans from the Eastern States have been found to have 6% Native American ancestry on average. So, unfortunately, did the Freedmen who were applying for tribe citizenship and hoping to be admitted on grounds of DNA testing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-fellow-blacks-you-are-not-native-american/461889.md?page=10)