# My friends rant about Iraq and peacniks from his LJ. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519 "2003-03-19T12:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/1 "2003-03-19T12:25:10Z")
Now, I know it is a bit bombastic for some, and I’m sure there are some “We are the World” types that are going to get peeved, but I thought my friends post in his LJ summed it up nicely. > [@](#): > > _From Micah_ > Perhaps those people who are adamantly against military action in the Middle East enjoy paying $2.00 for a gallon of gasoline. I have noticed that most of the vehicles carrying stickers that say “NO WAR ON IRAQ” are vehicles that average about 10 MPG. You’d think these people would all be on the “Invade Iraq Now” bandwagon instead. If there’s one thing I hate more than an ignorant hippy, it’s an ignorant hippy in an SUV. > People have asked me, “Why should the U.S. be allowed to invade another country just to make things better for ourselves?” > To those people, I have consistently replied, “It’s not only a matter of self-interest. The United States has a duty to throw down tyrants wherever they may be found.” > The lessons of history are clear. Tyrants who are appeased or ignored merely grow larger and more tyrannical. When the ruler of a foreign nation slaughters thousands of his own people (at times with chemical/biological agents), permits the rest of his people to live in abject poverty while he himself dines from plates of gold, allows his sons to rape and murder at will, and in general commits atrocities as a hobby, that ruler must be eliminated. If the people who suffer this oppression cannot or will not take action on their own, it falls to a third party to intercede. > Who better to perform this intercession than the United States? We are the biggest and strongest nation on the planet. Our very origins dedicated our country to the elimination of tyranny. That doesn’t mean we only eliminate tyrants in the United States. It means we oppose tyranny wherever it may lie. Invading Iraq should merely be the first step on a long road of liberation. > There are millions who live under the heel of oppression all over the world. In North Korea and China, the common people literally starve while the military-led communist regimes profit. In Colombia (a nation who has been a staunch friend of the United States and has one of the only democratic governments in South America), the people live in fear of FARC and M9 guerillas and the Columbian government cannot help them (though god knows they are trying to fight the good fight). > Opponents of war with Iraq wail loudly about how many Americans will be killed. This is true; war has casualties, and the butcher’s bill is always higher than one would wish. But all of America’s military men and women are volunteers. They are professionals who understand the risks of their trade. The price of liberty must be paid in blood, and that price can never be too high. Ask the people who suffered under German or Japanese occupation during World War Two what the limit should be on “acceptable casualties.” One hundred? One thousand? One? If one hundred men give their lives so one hundred thousand may live free, then so be it. > It would be nice if diplomacy was able to solve this situation. Unfortunately, diplomacy only works between rational men, and Saddam Hussein is anything but rational. He’s a psychotic madman with no concept of right and wrong. He might claim to be a worthy servant of Allah, but I think Allah would disdain to even wipe His deific ass with Hussein’s stupid mustache. > If I were a religious man, I would pray for the safety of our troops. As it is, I hope they remember their training and keep their heads when the shit hits the fan. I wish them luck in taking their objectives and accomplishing their missions. The same goes for the soldiers of our loyal allies, Britain, Spain, Australia, and Bulgaria. > While the limp-dicks of the United Nations may quail at the idea of war, there are those who know the price of liberty and are willing to pay it. May they enjoy the sweet taste of success and reap the fruits of victory. Have at it. I’m of course sending him the link to this thread, as I told him I would. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/2 "2003-03-19T12:50:03Z")
Oy. Your friend has a way with words, but his clarity ends there. For starters, if the US and UK will invade Iraq, and progress too close to Baghdad, Saddam will most likely set fire to every refinery and excavation site in the country - like he did whilst retreating from Kuwait. If anything, the war will (at least in the time span of the next 3 years) lead to a _decline_ in the oil supply coming out of Iraq, and it will cost billions and billions of dollars to restore the infrastructure to get it up to par again. In short, an SUV owner with an anti-war sticker on his car is probably a lot more realistic than your friend. Secondly, if the US has a moral duty to overthrow tyrants, then why does it only appear to be doing so when the tyrant at hand interferes with either US political interests, or economical interests? Why didn’t the US free Tibet? Why aren’t there any US troops putting pressure on North Korea? Where were the US when Ruanda exploded? I realise damn well that one can substitute just about any other nation in the questions above, but it IS the US leading the attack now. So, kindly provide (or have your friend provide) ONE example of the US (single-handedly, not as part of a UN mission) overthrowing a tyrant in a situation where there wasn’t any demonstrable political or economic gain for the US. Just a regime change for the sake of the people. One. Name one. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/3 "2003-03-19T13:00:53Z")
First off, no country on Earth does anything without getting a political or economic bonus from it. The US campaign against Japan didn’t really net us any gains. Peace, that would have been about it. We took out Noriega, and gained nothing but a black eye politically for it. We tried to take out warlords in Somalia, but weak willed politicians flaked on the cause. I’ll try to get back to the rest of this… you do ask some good questions, although I think you’re asking loaded questions. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/4 "2003-03-19T13:02:36Z")
> [@](#): > > ONE example of the US (single-handedly, not as part of a UN mission) overthrowing a tyrant in a situation where there wasn’t any demonstrable political or economic gain for the US. Just a regime change for the sake of the people. One. Name one. Please Somalia. Mohammed Farah Aideed (albeit that didn’t go very well). ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/5 "2003-03-19T13:07:12Z")
“First off, no country on Earth does anything without getting a political or economic bonus from it.” Then don’t suggest that the US is attacking Iraq because of some vague moral duty. “The US campaign against Japan didn’t really net us any gains. Peace, that would have been about it.” When Iraq bombs Pearl Harbor, I’ll be the first waving the US flag and cheering for every bomb that hits Saddam’s palace. “We took out Noriega, and gained nothing but a black eye politically for it.” Yes, of course. But the point it that Noriega had to be taken out _because the US had an interest_. Not because of some altruistic reason. “We tried to take out warlords in Somalia, but weak willed politicians flaked on the cause.” UN mission. Disqualified. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/6 "2003-03-19T13:30:50Z")
Wrong. The Somalia mission was a US endeavor. According to [this site](http://call.army.mil/Products/mout/docs/Somalia.htm) the entire operation in Somalia was composed of 3 parts. 1- UN mission, utilizing 3000 men. 2- Later, a seperate US mission that seized key points in and around Somalia. And later… 3- A return of humanitarian work to the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/7 "2003-03-19T13:44:17Z")
No, no, no. [Read here.](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ambush/etc/cron.html) > [@](#): > > The UN appeals to its members to provide military forces to assist the humanitarian operation. > > With only weeks left in his term as president, George Bush responds to the UN request, proposing that US combat troops lead an international UN force to secure the environment for relief operations. On December 5, the UN accepts his offer, and Bush orders 25,000 US troops into Somalia. On December 9th, the first US Marines land on the beach. While the US was the only nation providing safety for humanitarian convoys (kudos for that, BTW, I don’t want to belittle the effort in any way), it did so at the request of the UN. Had there not been a UN mission in Somalia, the US would not have sent troups there to overthrow Aideed. In fact, they weren’t even there to overthrow Aideed, initially. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/8 "2003-03-19T13:49:49Z")
> [@](#): > > “First off, no country on Earth does anything without getting a political or economic bonus from it.” Certain members of the country may benefit. The populace as whole, not so much. Some folks (and companies) will make big dollars. The rest of us will take it in the ass. The cost of gas has been going up, partly because of the international tension. IMO, this is not an unavoidable byproduct, but one of the goals of the Administration. Gas is now hovering around $2.20 a gallon in Los Angeles and will climb much higher, as it will in the rest of the country. And it’s not gonna come down, even after we take Iraq. > [@](#): > > The United States has a duty to throw down tyrants wherever they may be found Unless we put them there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/9 "2003-03-19T14:02:14Z")
Were the US beating a path to liberate Spain after Franco went to town? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/10 "2003-03-19T14:05:14Z")
Oddly enough, according to the news, Oil prices are starting to drop. Consequently, gas prices will also start to drop. And, even though Saddam had assistance from the US 20 years ago, that has little bearing on what’s happening now. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/11 "2003-03-19T14:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*The cost of gas has been going up, partly because of the international tension. IMO, this is not an unavoidable byproduct, but one of the goals of the Administration. \*\* I don’t see why. I buy home heating oil 100 gallons at a time. A .50 cent jump per gallon is an extra 50 bucks per delivery, and this being the winter that it was, deliveries were frequent…you have people in the cold states taking on an additional $100 - 200 or more monthly bill. A planned price increase would also cause a planned humanitarian crisis, because people on fixed incomes can’t easily absorb that cost nor switch easily to some other form of heat. The goal of any US administration would be to keep oil and gas affordable. This one is no different. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/12 "2003-03-19T14:13:38Z")
It has a LOT of bearing on it, Tristan. Namely that SH wouldn’t _be in fucking power_ if it wasn’t for the US. Sure, gas prices drop _now_. There is less uncertainty (i.e.: there WILL be war), so oil prices reflect the true value more accurately. However, if SH burns Iraq as he retreats, rest assured you’ll be _wishing_ for 2.20 a gallon. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/13 "2003-03-19T14:18:55Z")
Actually, oil prices dropped because non-Iraqi sources increased production. Still, I think the live journal thing is way off base except for the fact that diplomacy is an extremely limited tool against military dictatorships. And Coldfire is right that Saddam owes his tyrannical existence to the US. I reckon what giveth can taketh away, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/14 "2003-03-19T14:20:12Z")
According to the news, we will see gas hit $3.00 a gallon by summer. It was reported last week that LA will see it hit $2.50 in a couple of weeks, the momentary drop in crude oil price not withstanding… And some people will make HUGE sums of money. Bush and Cheney know some of them personally. ---
**Author:** ![Legomancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/779978/32.png) [@Legomancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legomancer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/15 "2003-03-19T14:21:05Z")
Do people really still believe that the US goes around fighting tyranny whenever it rears its ugly head? How quaint. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/16 "2003-03-19T14:26:33Z")
> [@](#): > > The price of liberty must be paid in blood, and that price can never be too high. Ask the people who suffered under German or Japanese occupation during World War Two what the limit should be on “acceptable casualties.” One hundred? One thousand? One? If one hundred men give their lives so one hundred thousand may live free, then so be it. So, how much blood of their non-Japanese captors/guards should the interned Japanese/Japenese-Americans have spilled to gain _their_ liberty in WWII America? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/17 "2003-03-19T14:46:57Z")
We seem to do a lot of things that come around and bite us in the ass 20 years later. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/no_me_ayudes_compadre/32/5224_2.png) [@No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Me_Ayudes_Compadre)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/18 "2003-03-19T14:58:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > \*\*We took out Noriega, and gained nothing but a black eye politically for it. The U.S. removal of Noriega was no noble pursuit. He was one of the last holdouts from the CIA’s\* Iranian Shah/ Nicaraguan Contra/ Argentine junta/ Colombian drug cartel / Cuban exile/ worldwide arms trafficking/ Central American anticommunist/ etc. network, and represented a serious liability as such, or at the very least an expendable asset with high maintenance cost. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/19 "2003-03-19T15:29:54Z")
Gass hitting $3 a gallon is a scandal to you people? Come and live in Europe! ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519/20 "2003-03-19T18:00:35Z")
> [@](#): > > In Colombia (a nation who has been a staunch friend of the United States and has one of the only democratic governments in South America), the people live in fear of FARC and M9 guerillas and the Columbian government cannot help them (though god knows they are trying to fight the good fight). This is a decade or to outdated, most of latin americas countries are now democracies. Granted not the most perfect ones but after Dubya administration your friend can’t criticize us 🙂 I hope that the next target in Bush hard on is not colombia, that is near, do me a favour if you participate in a poll please answer that the greatest danger to U.S. is Canada (not that bush care about polls, but you never know) 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-friends-rant-about-iraq-and-peacniks-from-his-lj/162519.md?page=2)