My idea for mass public transportation . . .Would this work?

What you describe is the railway’s drawback when compared to a car. Compared to air transport, this is where rail shines - because you can place a rail station in the middle of a town without too much trouble, and airports more or less have to be out in the boonies.

I don’t think the OPer wants rail to muscle out cars and/or air transport, but fast, comfortable trains are great for medium distances. Even if air transport is faster, if you figure in the time you spend in airports as opposed to the trains “show up and board” method (although planes are getting there), you might end up with very little time difference. And planes do not approach the level of comfort offered by modern trains.

I’ve nothing against piloting my own vehicle, but I like having the time free to do something more constructive than avoiding obstacles on the highway. FWIW, I’ve even loaded my vehicle on a train and slept the sleep of the just as I was whisked though Germany - that’s about 1000 kms of Autobahn that I didn’t have to waste my time, fuel, energy and rear tire on. Plus I could share a bottle of champagne with my friends. :slight_smile:

Trains have a niche - and I have a hard time seeing the difference between Government involvement in airports as compared to railroads. Infrastructure is one of the things Governments should care about.

S. Norman

Does anyone have any actual data on what a gallon (3.8 L) of gas (petrol) costs in Europe? 10 years ago it was about $4, but I imagine it’s gone up since then. Americans whine about $1.95. [World’s smallest violin playing “Oh bless my sweet, ignorant soul.”]

Rail vs. Auto: Rail has a huge overhead cost and therefore it is not practical right NOW as compared to the minimal overhead for a personal automobile especially when current convenience is factored in. If the price of a gallon of gas were to increase as it will when supply begins to run low the overhead of operating a personally owned vehicle will skyrocket thereby leaving an open for rail to capitalize on. When this happens, more rail lines will be built and the convenience factor of rail will improve.

It sounds like several people want to get the government involved in regulating all sorts of things. Fact: The more complicated a system gets, the more holes people will find to take advantage of it. Therefore, any role the government should play should be well defined and simple. Taxing only passenger car fuel not used for commuting to work is not a practical - read completely, outlandishly naive - idea.

Taxing gas across the board and using the money to socialize the current and future track would be my proposal. I’m not suggesting the government take over control of the rail companies, just that it be responsible for providing and maintaining the two rails at approximately the width of two horses asses. {Has anyone else read that e-mail about why the rails are spaced as they are? Interesting and amusing.) Simple, well defined and not a LOT of holes. There are some holes however, but in my limited vision I can not see how there would be enough incentive to subsidize the founding of an organized black market for gasoline: Break the law and potentially suffer the consequences to save $.50/gal?

MGibson: Have you ever paid attention to the types of cars the Europeans actually drive? They don’t drive SUV’s. They drive little tiny French cars that get 40 mpg. And they don’t drive them if they don’t have to. Having the car is not the roadblock; driving it is. Secondly, there currently is not a practical alternative to fossil fuels. Your optimism in technology indicates that you may be intoxicated by media hype because it appears as though you are assuming there WILL be a viable alternative to fossile fuels.

I sure will be glad when everyone starts using mass transit. That way I won’t have to wait so long at the pump.

I think maybe I don’t understand the initial proposal, even. A mass transit system of this type would be good for travelling between cities. Maybe. But most people don’t travel that far on a daily basis. For travelling within cities, don’t most of them have mass transit systems already? In New York City, I think the farthest I’ve ever had to walk is maybe 6 blocks. Still, the streets are jammed with cars. Personally I think anyone who drives in NYC is insane, but I guess if I lived there I might get used to it too.

I live on Long Island. The train system on the island is useful for one thing: going to NYC. If I chose to take the bus to work (there is one that stops on the street where I work, but that is a rare thing) it would make my commute (about 10 miles, which with LI traffic takes about a half hour by car) about twice as long as it is now. I can’t see any way for a train to work throughout Long Island. So far nobody has come up with any mass transit system that really works here. The buses that do run are rarely even half full, because its rare that one is going where you want to go. Too many places to stop, spread in every direction.

As an alternative to the overcrowded airports, its sounds great. As an alternative for the majority of car drivers, it sounds kind of useless.

Before we commit huge sums of money to public transit systems, why don’t we look a eliminating the need to coomute? Most programming jobs now can be done at home! Also, one big reason that people commute is because they cannot afford to live where they work! Take Boston, for example: I would love to live in the city, but I cannot AFFORD to do so! Why? Rents an property values have gone through the roof! Yet, there are literally THOUSANDS of abandoned public housing units going to ruin! The reason:
city governments are invariably corrupt, and most mayors are OWNED by real estate developers. That is why rents are so high-and-what happens to housing (particularly low-cost housing)? It is being destroyed! Take the (planned) expansion of the Fenway Park (baseball field). The city is prpared to GIVE $170 million to the team (to keep them in Boston), and the owners want to expand the park (to sell more tickets). Well, the planned expansion will destroy 500+ apartments-imagine what this will do to the housing market. Get rid of corrupt city governments, and you can solve the problem.

Guys, keep an eye on Florida. Not that anything we do down here ought to be a model for the rest of the U.S. of A., but…

I’ve mentioned before on this board that we’ve recently voted in (without a recount) the construction of a high-speed maglev that will connect the 5 major cities down here. Miami, Tampa, Orlando, et al. Construction will take forever, but it’s worth watching to see just how successful it will be.

Especially since most of y’all will be moving down here eventually :wink:

US mayors on the issue discussed in this thread:

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/000/477ahnqm.asp

Nothing to add this debate besides:

  1. Amtrak is pretty danged expensive now for traveling long distances; in many cases it’s more expensive than air travel. I’d love to take the train to visit my sister in Atlanta but I don’t have the time when it’s a 4-day trip and more often than not I can find a cheaper plane ticket. However, a train ride from Chicago to Milwaukee is dirt-cheap and takes a little more than an hour - all in all far more efficient than flying. In America, at least, seems to me that rail travel has a niche - it could easily supplant prop-plane commuter flights, but for long distances, I don’t see many people (particularly business travelers) opting to take the train instead.

  2. This Onion article hits the nail on the head. I’m beginning to believe it IS America’s best news source.

Any particular reason to think that fuel cell technology won’t work just as well for airplanes as for trains or cars?

That may be. It’s also a fact that cars are vastly more capable vehicle. I can’t take a train to the mall.

No matter how you slice it, you are trying to replace a mode of transportation (cars and trucks) with an economically inferior mode (trains.) I know it’s economically inferior because if it wasn’t, people would be using it now. And you’re proposing to do so by using government coercion.

Everything you’ve proposed will make something worse than what you’re going to make better. A tax of $1 on gasoline would instantly cause a massive supply shock to the entire economy, jacking up unemployment and creating a black market for cheap gas. A government-built rail system would be appallingly wasteful and expensive, and would certainly soak up way more money than would be planned for.

You’d be far better off expending all thse hundreds of billions of dollars inventing cars that run on something other than fossil fuels.

If that’s true, why does the government have to build it? If rail travel becomes more economical, private industries will start up rail companies. No need to jack fuel taxes through the roof.

First of all, you seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that fuel will just suddenly run out. It won’t, of course; it will gradually become more and more expensive over 20-40 years, until finally nobody wants to buy a gasoline-driven car.

Secondly, Ford and GM probably WON’T love this, because like most technological shifts it’ll allow new competitors into the market.

And finally, if all this does happen - and I don’t see why you can’t just run old cars on ethanol - it will happen all by itself. There’s no need for the government to waste trillions of dollars on it.

If your idea will be profitable, why don’t you go do it? Write out a business plan and submit it to a bunch of rich people and big corporations. If it’ll make money, they’ll be drooling to get in on your idea.

**

Most people here don’t drive SUVs either. Well, here in Texas they might but not in the rest of the country. When we lived in Germany dad owned a full sized Mercedes.

**

I hear from my sister that traffic is horrible in Naples. Incidentally so is the pollution. I wouldn’t want to lump all Europeans as being alike but I’m pretty sure most major cities over there do have steady, and heavy, traffic. And they don’t all drive tiny little French cars. In Germany I noticed plenty of cars that were normal size.

**

What media hype? I don’t remember which Japanese auto maker it was but they expect to start producing vehicles that run on fuel cells in the next 5 years. Sure they won’t be cheap at first and they probably won’t be all that good. But it is certainly paving the way towards a bright future for alternative powered vehicles.

At any rate I think the gasoline problem for automobiles will be solved before a nation wide implementation of rail could ever be completed.

Marc
I sure will be glad when everyone starts using mass transit. That way I won’t have to wait so long at the pump. **
[/QUOTE]

RickJay: No matter how you slice it, you are trying to replace a mode of transportation (cars and trucks) with an economically inferior mode (trains.) I know it’s economically inferior because if it wasn’t, people would be using it now. And you’re proposing to do so by using government coercion.

Remember that a large part of the reason that cars and trucks are currently “economically superior” to trains is because of massive government subsidies for them. Gasoline prices here are artificially low (rather than prices in Europe being artificially high) if you take into account the inadequacy of current gasoline taxes to cover the costs of highway/bridge/tunnel construction and maintenance, pollution generated by automobile construction/disposal/use, medical costs for highway accidents, loss of available space in municipal and private property due to parking requirements, etc. etc. etc.

And don’t forget the heavy subsidization of suburban residential/commercial development by their neighboring cities, which also serves to subsidize the automobile use that they require. On the whole, the main reason you believe that cars are cheaper than trains is because you are just so used to the fact that a huge chunk of auto-related costs is paid for out of general taxes, rather than by the various motorist-specific user fees, that you assume it’s the natural order of things. But it isn’t; it’s just as much a subsidy as the cash the government provides to Amtrak.

Now I’m not suggesting that the true solution is to take everybody’s car away from them; there will always be a need, especially in a country this large and diverse, for transportation that’s fast, direct, available on demand, and with cargo capacity, and that means that something like the private automobile will always be with us. But as I’ve pointed out to MGibson before, replacing all our autos with fixed-route public transit may be a nineteenth-century solution to a twenty-first-century problem, but expecting the autos to take care of all our transit needs is a mid-twentieth-century solution to a twenty-first-century problem: in the long run, it’s obsolete and inefficient too.

Exclusive dependence on private autos just makes no sense in densely populated regions, even if you were to solve all the fuel scarcity and pollution issues entirely. And given the fact that at the moment, those issues are very far from being solved, saying “oh, there’s no need to devote any thought to mass transit issues, markets and technology will take care of all these things automatically” strikes me as just plain D-U-M-B.

(Nice to see you again John Bredin and Spiny Norman; can always count on you guys for good thoughts in a transit thread. :))

That should happen when its economically feasable, putting in a extremely costly rail system that no one uses doesen’t seem useful. As for, suddenly the oil drys up and everyone starts rioting and killing, I don’t think we have to worry.

No, you shouldn’t take those things into account, because they aren’t relevant to the market price of gasoline. Gasoline is artifically high in the U.S.; it’s even higher in Europe, but the fact is that gasoline is disproportionately taxed.

If you want to charge appropriately for road usage, you wouldn’t tax gasoline, you’d charge for road usage with tolls and registration fees. I’m all for toll booths; the people using the roads should pay for it. Not all gasoline’s used in cars, you know.

That isn’t to say that road usage isn’t subsidized - like most big businesses, it is - but not to the extent Lissa’s suggesting.

Gosh, thanks.

Except it isn’t. Private rail can and does and has worked. Mass transit’s a good idea where it’s econbomical. Mass transit run by federal government fiat is not a good idea.

Well, one can quibble about which taxes/tolls to apply where, but kimstu’s basic point still stands. And, to correct for the external cost of the pollution, for example, putting the tax on gasoline seems most direct. For some of these other things, the use of tolls might be better. At any rate, the point is that at the end of the day, the price per mile use of an automobile would be a lot greater if so much of the costs were not off-loaded. This is why the Europeans, who seem to have the capability to be a lot wiser on these sorts of things than us, have put high taxes on gasoline.

IMO, trains will be a far more attractive option when the rail companies finally decide to quit daydreaming and make the maglev train a reality. I’ve heard is said that speeds of up to 300 mph are theoretically possible, and they would probably be less prone to delays than planes.

It is almost certain that someone will invent a practical, reasonably affordable alternative-energy car well before we have to worry about running out of gas. There are already two gas-electric hybrid cars on the market, and there is continuing research into storing enough power to make a battery or fuel cell powered electric car with a decent range.

ah, idyllic, yes. but just because the government builds it, does it mean people will ride it just because it is there? it would be a huge project, much larger than the westward expansion and much more costly. it would only work if rail lines were first established within cities themselves, for in the solution comes in response to a crunch in oil supply. in countries such as japan and the countries of europe, these are self-contained governments with lots of people in much less space. extensive passenger rail systems are already in place in those countries due to supply and demand. while we are experiencing a large population expansion, we are still much more spread out overall in relation and air travel is still cheaper and more efficient. there’s still this notion in washington that anything the government does for the good of its society is <i>socialism</i> and therefore feared. i like the intent of the idea of the gasoline tax, though i doubt it would go over well with the “masses”, or at least those in positions of power who like their gas-guzzling sport utilities.

I find it rather bizarre that both sides are discussing this issue strictly in the hypothetical. There are already at least a couple of existing “experiments” in expanding passenger rail service in operation.

*California, the state with a long reputation of being completely car-crazy, has built up a good intercity rail system with state money (Amtrak operates the trains as the state’s agent) and lured several thousands of people out of their cars. The Surfliner corridor between San Luis Obispo, Los Angeles, and San Diego has 11 trains a day in each direction. The Capitols corridor between San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento has seven daily round-trips. And the Oakland/Sacramento to Bakersfield corridor, the San Joaquin, has five round trips daily. Each of these corridors has consistently-rising ridership, and the state plans to add trains to each over the next few years.

*Washington and Oregon finance (with Amtrak operation) the Cascades corridor between Vancouver, BC and Eugene, OR but mainly connecting Seattle to Portland. This is another multi-train corridor where 10 years ago one or maybe two trains a day operated. The ridership on this route has been constantly growing since day one, and additional trains are in the works for the Cascades corridor as well. The trains are state-of-the art and very comfortable.

*And of course the Northeast Corridor from Boston to south of Washington, with fast trains at least once an hour from early in the morning to late at night. Of course, it was always a traffic-heavy line and was never allowed to decline after the private companies left the rail passenger business. Nevertheless, its achievements during Amtrak are still impressive, and the NEC carries 70% of all non-auto traffic between New York City and Washington DC. Yes, more people take the train than fly along the Northeast Corridor.

All of these trains operate right now in this country, not ten years from now or across the sea in Japan or France. And contrary to the fears of the randites on this board, none of them derive their growing ridership from government coercion. Nobody was compelled by threat of law or pointing of gun to get on these trains. :smiley: And their ridership did not depend on some “Soylent Green” future where the fuel is depleted. No, the existing congestion of our national highway system was more than sufficient incentive for people to voluntarily use the trains.

They all use the “19th Century technology” of steel wheels on steel rails. Well, guess what, the electric light, the safety elevator, the telephone, and radio are all “19th Century technology” that we rely utterly on in this 21st Century. Come to think of it, that utterly-modern automobile that is supposedly the by-all and end-all of transportation was also invented, as the “horseless carriage,” in the latter years of the 19th Century.

These corridors prove that where you offer multiple round-trips a day between major population centers 500 miles or fewer apart, the ridership IS there. And contrary to Senator McCain’s assertion that rail can only work in the Northeast and California, there are several places in the country where major cities are 500 or fewer miles apart.

In the Midwest, the state governments of Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, and Minnesota are working on a plan for a Midwestern high-speed network. With federal monetary assistance but still a considerable state expenditure, improvement to existing freight trackage has been underway for some years. These improvements include the improvement or elimination of grade crossings, so autos and trucks directly benefit as well. And these states, through Amtrak as their agent, have already requested bids for trainsets able to travel at 110mph. Such train sets are already mass-produced for the rail systems of other nations, so we aren’t talking Buck Rogers stuff here. This system is on track :slight_smile: to be operating in 2003 Chicago to Saint Louis, Chicago to Detroit, and Chicago to Milwaukee and Madison. Later extensions will be from Chicago to the Twin Cities, to Cleveland, and to Indianapolis and Cincinnati, and from Cleveland to Cincinnati by way of Columbus.

Nobody is seriously suggesting that the automobile or airplane be REPLACED by rail travel. Though I commute to work in downtown Chicago by train, I also own and use an automobile. When I travel from Chicago to New York, I fly because it’s faster. But would flying be faster, downtown-to-downtown, from Chicago to Saint Louis, or Chicago to Detroit, if trains could traverse those distances at just 100mph?! The ever-increasing ridership of the existing passenger rail corridors proves that where large population centers lie 500 miles or fewer apart, the government could move more people for fewer tax dollars by improving the EXISTING rail lines and buying high-speed train sets than by building extra road lanes which fill up with cars as soon as they are completed, and thus solve nothing, or new airports which gobble up hundreds of expensive acres of suburban housing and farmland. It’s not an issue of government versus private spending, it’s a cheaper government program versus a more expensive one.

One thing has not been addressed by those proposing increased rail use v.s. automobiles. For instance, I live in a small community that can’t justify itself as a regular stop for rail travel (not since the transition from steam locomotives to diesel, anyway – no need to take on water and coal). The nearest towns that might actually benefit from such rapid intercity transport are over 100 miles away. My commute to work takes me from this small burgh (population ~30,000) to a remote location about 50 miles away. The nearest town to my workplace is 20 miles distant, and has a population of less than a thousand (the nearest other community has a population of less than 100).

Trains? Pfeh! What I need is a more efficient car!

[obscure reference]
Stop trying to nail lifts onto the natives’ feet until you’ve had a chance to see if they even need them, huh? :wink:
[/reference]

~~Baloo

Given the present global and national economy, it won’t work. As other posters have mentioned, if it were practical and feasible, it would already be occurring. Cars, or personal transport of some manner, offer a mode of transportation necessary to a large segment of today’s society. The future is not trains, but some new fuel source.

This article in The Economist (Sep. 3, 1998) points out the reasons why public transport is simply impractical for much of the travel that takes place.

There was another article in an earlier issue on the feasibility of rail, which brought up the point of its only being competitive with planes in the ~100-150 mi., which several other posters have mentioned. The basic point was that trains are only more feasible given major metropolitan centers a certain distance apart - close, but not too close. This works fine for the Boston - D.C. corridor, and for much of Europe, but is impractical for much of the United States.

Unfortunately, the Economist site is being a bit of a bitch right now, and I don’t have the patience to sort through it. Anyone interested in tracking down the article can go here and start searching. I’d say it appeared in the 1997-9 range.

-ellis

ps.
The site might make you register to view the article. However, I believe it’s a free procedure. If not, check the library if you’re that interested.

Here’s a table which compares the price of gas over there in the US with the price here in the UK and other European countries. Enjoy the fright.

http://lowerfueltax.yellowtang.com/info/comparisons.htm

The table gives prices per litre. There are roughly 4.5 litres in a gallon.

The table converts prices to UK pounds and pence, because it’s a table produced for the UK campaign for lower fuel costs. At the time of posting, 1 pound = 1.46 US dollars.