# My kid's teacher taught them the Alanis definition of "ironic". **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 1, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107 "2006-09-01T19:10:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/21 "2006-09-02T00:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] If you do correct the teacher via a gently worded, anonymous note, don’t put the period outside the quotation mark. A correction of this sort would be, well, ironic. [/QUOTE] This American-style quoting is gradually disappearing even in this country, given how weirdly illogical it is. In fact, I’d be rather surprised to see that style of quotes in a technical or academic context. ---
**Author:** ![Stainz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Stainz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stainz)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/22 "2006-09-02T00:13:25Z")
I remember about 10 years ago a loopy friend of my ditzy stepsister bragged that she was the “coolest” teacher because she was using that song to teach the meaning of “ironic”. I started to reply and then just :rolleyes: . To me it was a prime example of why P.E. teachers shouldn’t be teaching English. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/23 "2006-09-02T01:50:55Z")
My favorite clarification of ‘irony’ comes from the last episode of Futurama, [The Devil’s Hands are Idle Playthings.](http://www.futurama-madhouse.com.ar/scripts/4acv18.shtml) In one scene, the Robot Devil is trying to get Fry to agree to switch Fry’s ‘stupid hands’ with the hands of a robot, to be selected at random using a big spinning wheel. Fry’s robot friend Bender urges him to accept the deal. The Robot Devil reassures Fry that he will “definitely probably not” know the robot that will be selected. We are treated to shots of Bender rubbing his hands with glee, and the Robot Devil drumming his fingers on the wheel on either side of a segment marked “Bender”. Fry agrees, the Robot Devil spins the wheel, and the pointer lands on Bender – then clicks over one more space to “Robot Devil” > [@](#): > > Fry: Robot Devil? I get your hands? Zam! > Robot Devil: Oh, what an appallingly ironic outcome! > Bender: It’s not ironic, it’s just coincidental. Now fork over those lady-fingers, Cookie! > Robot Devil: Y’know, I only put my name on there as a show of good faith for the other robots. Fry had wanted robot hands so he could compose and play music on the holophoner to impress Leela. The Robot Devil keeps asking for his hands back, but Fry refuses, so the Robot Devil composes a “ridiculously circuitous plan”. He gets Bender to trade his ‘ass plate’ for a stadium airhorn. Bender then blasts Leela with the airhorn, deafening her. > [@](#): > > Leela: (shouting) What? Are you talking? Oh, God! I’m deaf! > Bender: Oops. I’m so, so sorry, Leela. I just wanted to annoy you. > Leela: (shouting) What? Oh, this is horrible. I won’t be able to hear Fry’s opera. > [She cries. The Robot Devil stands at the end of the corridor watching them.] > Robot Devil: Ah, how delightfully ironic. > > Bender: It’s not ironic, it’s just mean. Leela goes to the opening of Fry’s opera, but can’t hear the music. At the intermission, she runs into the Robot Devil and tries to make a deal for new ears. The Robot Devil wants her hands in trade, but she refuses. The Robot Devil then asks for just one hand, and she agrees. He gives her robot ears, but does not take her hand right away. Later, the Robot Devil interrupts Fry’s opera to demand his hands back again, saying that if Fry does not agree, he will take Leela’s hand…_in marriage!_ > [@](#): > > Leela: (singing) That isn’t what I meant,That isn’t what I signed. > [The Robot Devil takes the contract out of his chest cabinet.] > Robot Devil: (singing) You should have checked the wording in the fine… [He makes the contract larger.] Print. > Leela: (reading) I’ll give you my hand… > Leela and Robot Devil: (singing) In marriage. Bender, sitting in the audience, pulls out a dictionary and reads: > [@](#): > > Bender: (singing) The use of words expressing something other than their literal intention. Now _that_. Is. Irony. I always think of Bender’s Gilbert-and-Sullivan-like delivery of that line when I hear the word ‘irony’. Still, I think my favorite definition is “poignantly contrary to expectation”, in which case I’d say that the Robot Devil’s response to the spinning wheel (which he clearly thought was rigged) was, in fact, correct. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/24 "2006-09-02T02:01:16Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] If you do correct the teacher via a gently worded, anonymous note, don’t put the period outside the quotation mark. A correction of this sort would be, well, ironic. [/QUOTE] What \*\*Excalibre \*\*said. I was taught in writing class to put the period outside the quotes unless the quoted section is a complete sentence. You’d have a better nit to pick that I mixed case by writing “kid’s” and “them”, rather than “kids’” and “them” or “kid’s” and “him”. Of course what I meant was “My kid’s teacher taught her entire class…”. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/25 "2006-09-02T02:36:08Z")
My high school rugby coach claimed that when he was in high school, his English teacher (who was also mine, five years later) asked the class for the definition of irony. The coach, then a sophomore, raised his hand and gave the situations in the Alanis song, in the order they appear in the lyrics. The teacher, apparently un-hip, congradulated him for giving good examples. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/26 "2006-09-02T02:39:08Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] What \*\*Excalibre \*\*said. I was taught in writing class to put the period outside the quotes unless the quoted section is a complete sentence. You’d have a better nit to pick that I mixed case by writing “kid’s” and “them”, rather than “kids’” and “them” or “kid’s” and “him”. Of course what I meant was “My kid’s teacher taught her entire class…”. [/QUOTE] That’s not case. Oh, never mind. I’m going to go sit in a corner and growl to myself about grammatical terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/27 "2006-09-02T04:14:59Z")
Here’s more debate about this whole topic [here,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=299252) [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=268136) (this one, started by me, is even about Futurama, as mentioned earlier), and [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=263071) One thing that comes up in more than one is the idea that “ironic” = “sarcastic.” That feels wrong to me, but maybe that’s just truthiness in action. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/28 "2006-09-02T05:42:13Z")
There’s also _Socratic irony_, where a person purposely “plays stupid” regarding a concept in an effort to get the other parties in a discourse to relate or discover said concept. ---
**Author:** ![FilmGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/29 "2006-09-02T05:45:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sgt Schwartz] I would write the email just to ensure that she knows the real meaning of irony. I think your definition is correct. Alanis is way off base in her definition and examples. I would also advise the teacher that the only pop music that should be used to educate our youth is The Buggles “Video Killed the Radio Star.” Sgt Schwartz [/QUOTE] I disagree. Billy Joel’s _We Didn’t Start the Fire_ is pretty good for teaching too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/30 "2006-09-02T05:54:44Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] There’s also _Socratic irony_, where a person purposely “plays stupid” regarding a concept in an effort to get the other parties in a discourse to relate or discover said concept. [/QUOTE] I don’t know, what do you call [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7728794&postcount=55) ? ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/31 "2006-09-02T06:02:48Z")
Freaky… You know, a sufficiently sophisticated student could employ Socratic Irony and a dictionary definition of irony to push the class/teacher into a corner by deconstructing the stupid song, and watching each and every bit of the song fail the definition…Except as a whole, in that a song about irony actually doesn’t refer to irony…isn’t that ironic. Seriously, it is important for students to realise that they should not accept erroneously bullshit, even from a teacher. Even if they choose not to fight the public battle with the teacher, they should at least confirm and understand the error. Then again, good teachers learn from their students. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/32 "2006-09-02T06:29:23Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] Freaky… Then again, good teachers learn from their students. [/QUOTE] Only if the teacher utilizes socratic irony and the student employs ignoratio elenchi. _That’s_ freaky. What do _you_ call [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7739137&postcount=30) ? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/33 "2006-09-02T06:48:03Z")
Well, the idea is that the person employing Socratic Irony knows the correct idea, and is trying to get the target to relise the correct idea, or to develop it, In this case, the teacher is the problem. So the student employs SI in an effort to get the fuckwit teacher to understand the proper meanings of irony… ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/34 "2006-09-02T07:00:02Z")
I was the student and yet I was the teacher. You were the teacher and yet you were the student. If you follow the dialouge we just had, as it complicates though the links, it leads to either an incorrect conclusion (ignoratio elenchi), a paradox, déjà vu, or something completely different altogether. The question is… what? ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/35 "2006-09-02T07:17:15Z")
The concept is “the correct meaning of the word **irony**.” The _teacher_ mentioned in the OP was mutilating the correct meaning. A student in the class could employ Socratic Irony in an attempt to get the teacher to see his/her error. Clear? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/36 "2006-09-02T08:06:47Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] Freaky… You know, a sufficiently sophisticated student could employ Socratic Irony and a dictionary definition of irony to push the class/teacher into a corner by **deconstructing the stupid song** , and watching each and every bit of the song fail the definition… **Except as a whole** , in that a song about irony actually doesn’t refer to irony…isn’t that ironic. [/QUOTE] **cerberus** , we’ve just come full circle. Now this is really freaky. :eek: Just as you mentioned deconstructing the song, I mentioned decontructing the exchange we’ve been having. Déjà vu. [QUOTE=cerberus] The teacher mentioned in the OP was mutilating the correct meaning. [/QUOTE] That is the question, as of this post: As a whole, is the song and our exchange ironic? Meta-ironic? Thus far, it seems: The whole of our exchange deconstucts and is NOT irony The whole of the song deconstructs, **in the context of our exchange,** and IS ironic The whole of the song deconstructs, **outside of the context of our exchange,** and is NOT ironic Can any other Dopers figure out all this?? I honestly don’t know. It’s ironic that I know, philosophically, the concepts socratic irony, ignoratio elenchi, and other concepts…but I seem to be dececieving myself. The past days have been illuminating, profound, and one of the most prolific posting days of my SDMB career. This is like a dialouge between Plato and Socrates. But am I Plato? Or is **cerberus** Socrates? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/37 "2006-09-02T08:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=Kozmik] That is the question, as of this post: As a whole, is the song and our exchange ironic? Meta-ironic? Can any other Dopers figure out all this?? [/QUOTE] Well…you oughta know. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/38 "2006-09-02T09:50:10Z")
**KGS** you are a genius. You are literally “another Doper” who could figure out all this - you knew what I knew in a half hour what’s been taking me over three hours to figure out. You knew what I knew before I knew it. What took me three hours to figure out, only took you a half hour. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/39 "2006-09-02T10:33:06Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] This American-style quoting is gradually disappearing even in this country, given how weirdly illogical it is. In fact, I’d be rather surprised to see that style of quotes in a technical or academic context. [/QUOTE] It must be extremely gradual then. For some anal retentive reason I’m fixated on this rule, so I notice its violation (or not) all the time. All the American newspapers and books I read seem to follow it. That “style of quotes” is still the [official rule](http://www.writersblock.ca/tips/monthtip/tipmay96.htm), I believe. > [@](#): > > In the American style, periods and commas are always placed inside the quotation marks, for typographical reasons. In the British style, periods and commas are placed inside the quotation marks only when they are part of the quoted material, which is the more logical placement. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107/40 "2006-09-02T10:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] What \*\*Excalibre \*\*said. I was taught in writing class to put the period outside the quotes unless the quoted section is a complete sentence. [/QUOTE] Really? Hmm. Not to question you, but I can’t find a single resource that doesn’t support “punctuation inside quotation marks” as the proper American usage (not that I’m researching this exhaustively). Seems unambiguous, unlike the change we’ve witnessed regarding split infinitives. Did you guys use a particular text in that class? Do you remember what it was? Forget Iraq. _This_ is the issue of our age. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-kids-teacher-taught-them-the-alanis-definition-of-ironic/371107.md?page=3)