# My local EPA can suck my balls. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841 "2014-06-02T15:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Robrein](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robrein/32/6728_2.png) [@Robrein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robrein)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/1 "2014-06-02T15:54:25Z")
If it pleases the dope I wish to submit the Victorian Environmental Protection Authority for my virginal pitting. The Story Apparently Friday week ago my father-in-law and my missus went shopping at the local shopping strip. They parked the car and went shopping. On the return walk to the car the missus lit a cigarette. The FIL doesn’t smoke, is in poor health, and certainly does not allow smoking in his car. They stood on the opposite side of the street (under the awnings) to the car and waited for her to finish. She carries a small pocket ashtray she brought from the supermarket. She put her butt in when finished and they crossed the street, got in his car and took off. Low and behold today the FIL called me quite upset. He has received a $577 infringement notice from the EPA: “Offence : deposit burning litter Offence Place : XXXX STREET Information about the offence: female front passenger deposited lit butt on ground before getting into vehicle” Also included is a print out of four sections of [the act](http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/epa1970284/) 45E 45G 45H and 45I. Section 45E sets out that littering is an offence. Section 45G states > [@](#): > > Owners, drivers etc. of vehicles from which litter deposited liable for littering > > \*\* (2) If a person deposits litter contrary to section 45E and was seen arriving at or leaving the place where he or she deposited the litter in a vehicle, the registered owner of the vehicle is deemed to be guilty of an offence against section 45E.\*\* The notice came without a number to call, just a PO Box and their website address. I looked up and rang their switchboard and was told that all the information is on the [website](http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/get-involved/report-litter). After insisting a bit, I was told that it was probably filed through the recently released IPhone app by a member of the public. If they get a report they just send out an infringement notice. I was shocked by this, people can just download [the app](https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/report-litter/id483072539?mt=8) and start reporting other people for allegedly littering? No evidence required except the plate and make and click “I promise I saw 'em heathens do it”? No training in the application of Acts and offenses, like the police and authorized officers? How do they know the difference between lit butt ($577) and unlit ($288) from their high horse? What is distance from the vehicle and “the place where he or she” sinfully killed mother nature? Two feet? Five blocks? In fact you select in the app “female” “front passenger” “deposited lit butt” and “on ground before getting into vehicle” in the four drop down menus. No need to even be literate. You want to know two more reasons why people unleash their inner judge/cop: One > [@](#): > > Eighty-six per cent of litter fines EPA issues relate to lit and unlit cigarette butts Two If you can get to a milestone number of reports [you can win gift packages.](http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1868606) Now I have to go through all the bullshit of organizing stat decs and potentially getting my unwell FIL through court. The busybody will probably not even turn up, to busy staking out the town’s cat that he thinks is shitting on a public nature strip. God knows how much time and money it will end up costing. You might well ask how do I know she didn’t do it? She is fanatical about not dropping butts. As I said she carries a portable ashtray and I have never in all the time we have been together seen her do it. Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a little. Anybody else had a littering fine before? Oh and in the best spirits of pitting: fuck them, fuck them all. Rob ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/2 "2014-06-02T16:41:10Z")
Before anyone wades through this - this is not the EPA in the United States of America. This is an Australian State authority that has the role of regulating pollution. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/3 "2014-06-02T16:55:23Z")
I hate people who litter, and when i see it happen i often wish there were something i could do about it, but that system in Victoria is fucked up. They get an app report from a member of the public, and they send you a $577 notice, with no further evidence or anything? That is just bullshit. Yes, they provide a Statutory Declaration (similar, but not identical to, an affidavit) that you can fill out and mail in if you believe that you’ve been falsely accused, but the burden of proof seems to be on you to demonstrate that you did not, in fact, commit the offense. Relying on the word of the general public for something like this seems to me to be a recipe for all sorts of petty vendettas, or for every busybody to deputize himself or herself as a guardian of public morality. I understand that we, as a society, give credence to certain statements made by individuals in authority. For example, if a cop writes you ticket for dangerous driving, the courts generally take the cop’s word for it, even though he may have no actual evidence except his own testimony. But to give that same level of credence to every member of the public, for information sent over a cellphone app, seems to me to be the height of absurdity. I doubt this law could, or would, get passed in the United states, although i’ve been wrong about stuff like this before. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/4 "2014-06-02T17:01:49Z")
You are assuming the notice actually requires him to pay. More likely it’s in the nature of a charging document (though admittedly I have no knowledge of this procedure.) ---
**Author:** ![Robrein](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robrein/32/6728_2.png) [@Robrein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robrein)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/5 "2014-06-02T17:19:13Z")
Thanks, I did put in Victorian EPA. And I think the A in your EPA is for Agency. ---
**Author:** ![Robrein](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robrein/32/6728_2.png) [@Robrein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robrein)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/6 "2014-06-02T17:26:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You are assuming the notice actually requires him to pay. More likely it’s in the nature of a charging document (though admittedly I have no knowledge of this procedure.) Yes it has all the regular payment details in the bottom third. BPay, Biller Code, Reference Number and a handy bar code. $577 due on the 9th of July. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/7 "2014-06-02T17:28:11Z")
Little old ladies being wrongfully accused get great sympathy points. If this system has been really unpopular, go to the news. Or get a group of people to get the app and start reporting local politicians for littering. Win those prizes! ---
**Author:** ![Robrein](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robrein/32/6728_2.png) [@Robrein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robrein)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/8 "2014-06-02T17:41:41Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > Little old ladies being wrongfully accused get great sympathy points. If this system has been really unpopular, go to the news. > > Or get a group of people to get the app and start reporting local politicians for littering. Win those prizes! It has been in the local news [before](http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/east/toni-withiel-questions-dob-in-a-litterer-scheme-after-she-says-she-was-wrongly-fined-for-littering/story-fngnvlxu-1226565976060). There has also been reports I’m sure I’ve read of people getting multiple fines for a single alleged “offence”. ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/9 "2014-06-02T17:42:51Z")
**Robrein** , I’m sympathizing with you and your Father-in-Law, even though I detest litterers and especially smokers that are also litterers. But this is not a great way to fix the problem. I did think you meant Victorian as in the out of date mind set/time period sense rather than geographical reference. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/10 "2014-06-02T17:51:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You are assuming the notice actually requires him to pay. More likely it’s in the nature of a charging document (though admittedly I have no knowledge of this procedure.) Well, you can see for yourself what the Victorian EPA [says](http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/get-involved/report-litter/if-youve-been-reported) about these infringement notices. On the page titled “If you’ve been reported for littering,” it says: > [@](#): > > If litter is thrown or dropped from a motor vehicle, the Environment Protection Act deems the driver, the registered owner or any person authorised by the registered owner to use the car at that time to be guilty of littering. > > EPA’s policy is to issue the infringement notice to the registered owner. If the registered owner isn’t responsible for the littering because someone else was driving their vehicle, the owner will need to provide EPA with a statutory declaration stating who was responsible. Ordinary letters, faxes or emails will not be accepted. It then provides a statutory declaration form, and notes that, if you submit this form, you need to provide: > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]name and address of person who was responsible if you were not. If you don’t know this information, EPA requires an explanation as to why you don’t[/li][li]any other relevant facts relating to the offence, including facts that may disprove the reported litter offence.[/li][/ul] Unfortunately, it doesn’t go into more detail than that. It doesn’t say, for example, what happens if you just ignore the notice. It doesn’t say how likely it is that a stat dec denying responsibility will be accepted. Also, even if your stat dec is accepted, the fact is that filling out and mailing such a form takes time, effort, and money. It’s worth noting that Victoria isn’t the only state with such a system. New South Wales, Australia’s most populous state, similarly allows people to report littering, and will issue infringement notices based on such reports if the reports are detailed enough. The NSW site, on its [FAQ page](http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/warr/litterfaq.htm), says: > [@](#): > > **Can a report of littering from a citizen be relied upon by a council or other agency with the power to issue penalty notices as the basis for issuing a penalty notice for littering from a vehicle?** > > If the report, in the opinion of the officer reviewing it, provides evidence beyond reasonable doubt of the offence, yes. This is the position applicable to reliance on the evidence of eye witnesses of offences generally. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/11 "2014-06-02T17:52:47Z")
> [@Satchmo](#): > > I did think you meant Victorian as in the out of date mind set/time period sense rather than geographical reference. That’s how I read it too and was confused. I must have skimmed over Authority and just parsed it as Agency- thanks for the clarification up thread! ---
**Author:** ![Robrein](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robrein/32/6728_2.png) [@Robrein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robrein)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/12 "2014-06-02T17:59:18Z")
> [@Satchmo](#): > > **Robrein** , I’m sympathizing with you and your Father-in-Law, even though I detest litterers and especially smokers that are also litterers. But this is not a great way to fix the problem. I did think you meant Victorian as in the out of date mind set/time period sense rather than geographical reference. Hey, in fairness Pennsylvanian and Mississippian are time periods too. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/13 "2014-06-02T18:18:02Z")
> [@Robrein](#): > > Hey, in fairness Pennsylvanian and Mississippian are time periods too. And Devonian… ---
**Author:** ![Robrein](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robrein/32/6728_2.png) [@Robrein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robrein)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/14 "2014-06-02T18:22:14Z")
And Georgian… ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/15 "2014-06-02T19:06:55Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > …I doubt this law could, or would, get passed in the United states, although i’ve been wrong about stuff like this before. Welcome to the US. It’s where the flavor is, and where particular people congregate. Road trips are enjoyable, not a cough in a carload. We’d rather fight than emigrate. ---
**Author:** ![Caught\_Work](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Caught\_Work](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caught_Work)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/16 "2014-06-02T22:03:33Z")
I got pinged twice (in separate incidents) for throwing a lit cigarette out of the car window while driving. Both were along the same stretch of road at the same time in the morning as part of my morning drive to work. I don’t do this, by the way, I use the car ashtray. Both times I challenged the infringement notice with a statutory declaration signed in front of the pharmacist on the ground floor of the building I worked in. i.e. Minimal effort and time to get the stat dec. Both times I claimed (probably accurately as I didn’t know what the other driver saw) that what they saw was the disposal of ASH out the car window, NOT the butt. The disposal of ASH out of the car window is acceptable, so I got off both times with the EPA withdrawing the infringement notice both times. I accept that disposing of butts out of the car window is not acceptable, but as I didn’t do it, I’m not going to pay for what Mr Busybody in the car behind me thought he saw. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/17 "2014-06-02T22:09:36Z")
> [@Caught\_Work](#): > > Both times I challenged the infringement notice with a statutory declaration signed in front of the pharmacist on the ground floor of the building I worked in. i.e. Minimal effort and time to get the stat dec. Pharmacist? Do pharmacists in Australia serve notarial functions? Why? (Although I admit it would be convenient to just be able to run down to the local CVS if you needed something notarized) ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/18 "2014-06-02T23:14:45Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Pharmacist? Do pharmacists in Australia serve notarial functions? Why? > > (Although I admit it would be convenient to just be able to run down to the local CVS if you needed something notarized) Yep. Notary-type functions can, in Australia, be performed by quite a wide variety of professionals. Here’s a list of people who can witness a statutory declaration in Victoria. It’s similar in most Australian states: > [@](#): > > a) a justice of the peace or a bail justice > b) a public notary > c) an Australian lawyer (within the meaning of the Legal Profession Act 2004) > d) a clerk to an Australian lawyer > e) the prothonotary or a deputy prothonotary of the Supreme Court, the registrar or adeputy registrar of the County Court, the principal registrar of the Magistrates’ Court or a registrar or deputy registrar of the Magistrates’ Court > f) the registrar of probates or an assistant registrar of probates > g) the associate to a judge of the Supreme Court or of the County Court > h) the associate of an associate judge of the Supreme Court or an associate judge of the County Court > i) a person registered as a patent attorney under Chapter 20 of the Patents Act 1990 of the Commonwealth > j) a member of the police force > k) the sheriff or a deputy sheriff > l) a member or a former member of either House of the Parliament of Victoria > m) a member or a former member of either House of the Parliament of the Commonwealth > n) a councillor of a municipality > o) a senior officer of a Council as defined in the Local Government Act 1989 > p) a person registered under the Health Practitioner Regulation National Law to practise in the medical profession (other than as a student) > q) a person registered under the Health Practitioner Regulation National Law– > i) to practise in the dental profession as a dentist (other than as a student); > and > ii) in the dentists division of that profession > r) a veterinary practitioner > s) a person registered under the Health Practitioner National Law to practise in the pharmacy profession (other than as a student) > t) a principal in the teaching service > u) the manager of an authorised deposit-taking institution > v) a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia or the Australian Society of Accountants or the National Institute of Accountants > w) the secretary of a building society > x) a minister of religion authorised to celebrate marriages > y) a person employed under Part 3 of the Public Administration Act 2004 with a > classification that is prescribed as a classification to which this section applies or who holds office in a statutory authority with such classification (see > Evidence (Affidavits and Statutory Declarations) Regulations 2008 for prescribed classifications) > z) a fellow of the Institute of Legal Executives (Victoria) ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/19 "2014-06-02T23:24:36Z")
> [@Caught\_Work](#): > > Both times I claimed (probably accurately as I didn’t know what the other driver saw) that what they saw was the disposal of ASH out the car window, NOT the butt. The disposal of ASH out of the car window is acceptable, so I got off both times with the EPA withdrawing the infringement notice both times. > > I accept that disposing of butts out of the car window is not acceptable, but as I didn’t do it, I’m not going to pay for what Mr Busybody in the car behind me thought he saw. I’ve already said that i think the way the law works is bad, but having spent many years living in both the United States and Australia, i would like to note one important thing that the two countries seem to have in common: In both places, discarded cigarette butts constitute a significant portion of the everyday litter problem, and in both places discarded cigarette butts have caused a significant number of fires, and yet, in each country, every single smoker swears black and blue that THEY always dispose of their butts properly. Here in San Diego County, they banned smoking on the beaches, not because of the health risks of smoke, but because you couldn’t go to the beach without turning up little gold mines of cigarette butts that some prior beachgoer had thoughtfully left in the sand. When the law was passed, county smokers waxed indignant in the local media about how THEY never left their cigarette butts on the beach. Smokers themselves, to hear them talk about it, are never the cause of cigarette-related litter. There must be a trans-Pacific, cigarette butt-distributing fairy that goes around raiding ashtrays in order to sprinkle the offending articles throughout the Australian and American countrysides. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841/20 "2014-06-02T23:41:10Z")
Well, sure. They don’t like to talk about it, but aside from the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Facility going tits-up after the Japanese tsunami, the next most devastating consequence was the Fukushima Prefecture Official Cigarette Butt Dump was completely washed away, and the ocean currents have been depositing the detritus on American beaches ever since. We’re talking about a cone of filter tips, here, three storeys tall; I kid you not. Well, maybe I kid you a little… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-local-epa-can-suck-my-balls/689841.md?page=2)