# My mom, divorced 3 times, thinks gay marriage will "ruin" marriage. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381 "2011-06-30T13:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/201 "2011-07-02T20:37:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re right in that if couples _want_ the societal endorsement that comes with “marriage” that is, indeed" a testament to it’s importance and validity. It does not necessarily follow that expanding the concept of marriage to include them will not dilute the concept of the very importance you mention. I think it does. And logic agrees with me. For instance, here in the U.S., as in most of the West, we tend to think of marriage as that special bond between one man and one woman. That idea(l) gets diluted when you expand the meaning of the word to mean either two people of the same sex or polygamous marriages. Well if making it more specific makes it more special, then hell, let’s restrict marriage to one man and one woman of the same race. Or even better, one man and one woman of the same race with the same eye color. That’s one special institution, ain’t it? No wait, it’s dumb because restrictions based on physical characteristics is arbitrary and serves no benefit. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/202 "2011-07-02T20:38:51Z")
**magellan01** , to be consistent, would have had to oppose the end of Jim Crow laws on the basis that the meaning of “front of the bus” would be diluted by letting the coloreds share it. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/203 "2011-07-02T20:38:56Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > That dog won’t hunt as it means no single parent households either. Coupled with the fact that family friends, relatives and older siblings can function as ‘an opposite sex viewpoint’ means that the ‘two parents of opposite sex required’ argument is a dead end. Repeatedly the experts say that the parents are the primary influence on the child, meaning most important. But I never said gays raising children is unacceptable. Any parent is better than none. I did say it is not optimum and nothing but natural nuclear families should be promoted. But we’ll settle for less if its the best we can get. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/204 "2011-07-02T20:40:44Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Pray tell, do I ahve a right to an abortion? (I’m male) Maybe if you think about this, you’ll start understanding equal protection. Yes, you do have that right, and have had it ever since _Roe_. Now, kindly explain your point. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/205 "2011-07-02T20:43:15Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Whether or not gays find me attractive is of course irrelevant, and my mentioning it is in the context of what I personally will not tolerate from gays. Your point is irrelevant and ad hominem. Considering that you keep going on about how great a guy you are, no it isn’t. > [@David42](#): > > Gay issues are not the equivalent of race issues. Yes they are, whether you choose to admit it or not. You just don’t want to admit that you are the 21st century version of the guys who ranted about how interracial marriage was evil. > [@David42](#): > > If these rights and privileges have nothing to do with keeping families intact, then I may be against extending those rights and privileges to anyone. Many of these rights and privileges are already available to gays if they would simply take steps to secure them. In other words, they should pay and pay and pay for what straights get just for marrying. And are you really going to argue that a wife shouldn’t be allowed to choose what happens to her dead husband’s body just because that has nothing to do with children? > [@David42](#): > > You almost got it right. My first point isn’t that homosexual marriage alone is sufficiently damaging. It probably isn’t. But seen in the light of seventy years of one blow after another to marriage, all the protections are gone. You have provided no evidence that it is damaging at all. > [@David42](#): > > I do think it is icky, but its not part of my argument. It is however rather obviously your actual motivation. > [@David42](#): > > Why don’t you go read the posts where those arguments are instead of dismissing them out of hand? Because they don’t exist. You’ve simply asserted that SSM somehow damages marriage without providing any explanation for how that’s even possible. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/206 "2011-07-02T20:43:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because opposing SSM is persecution regardless of why you claim to do it. And because it is a position without rational or moral justification. > > Ah, another version of the old "some of my best friends are ‘X’ " line. Nope none of them are my best friends. But I have compassion for some. After all, your claim is I am a hater. Why is it valid for you to hate gays but my claim that I don’t is invalid? I can support gays as people and not support some of their activities. If your best friend drives drunk, don’t say, “Hey, I love you bro, but you shouldn’t drive drunk?” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/207 "2011-07-02T20:48:06Z")
> [@David42](#): > > After all, your claim is I am a hater. Why is it valid for you to hate gays but my claim that I don’t is invalid? :rolleyes: I don’t hate gays. And your comparison of their relationships to excrement, your “speculation” that they are plotting against marriage, your desire to persecute them are all glaring signs that you do indeed hate them. > [@David42](#): > > I can support gays as people and not support some of their activities. In other words, you want to stomp on them while making speeches about how nice a guy you are. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/208 "2011-07-02T20:48:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Considering that you keep going on about how great a guy you are, no it isn’t. > > Yes they are, whether you choose to admit it or not. You just don’t want to admit that you are the 21st century version of the guys who ranted about how interracial marriage was evil. > > In other words, they should pay and pay and pay for what straights get just for marrying. And are you really going to argue that a wife shouldn’t be allowed to choose what happens to her dead husband’s body just because that has nothing to do with children? > > You have provided no evidence that it is damaging at all. > > It is however rather obviously your actual motivation. > > Because they don’t exist. You’ve simply asserted that SSM somehow damages marriage without providing any explanation for how that’s even possible. You started with the ad hominems and the moderator has been notified. I defended myself when YOU WENT ON AND ON about what a bad guy I am. Stop the ad hominem stuff. My motivation is irrelevant. I could just as easily claim your motivation is the destruction of all morals in our culture. But it would be irrelevant to the arguments you make, which seem to be nothing more than one news story in which you ignored the flaws, attacking me personally, and generally explaining I am wrong without saying why I am wrong. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/209 "2011-07-02T20:49:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Perhaps someday the **magellan** s and **David** s will come to see that this latest advance in civilization does not detract from the institution of man/woman marriage _at all_, it merely removes a restriction on it that they cannot reason their way into defending. But that day is not, alas, today. Ah, the old civilization becoming more enlightened ploy. It might interest you to know that homosexuality has been around since time immemorial. And during that time, there have been thousands and thousands of societal experiments that had different levels of acceptance for it. Yet, even in those societies in which it was a very accepted fact of life, they didn’t go as far as to equate the special relationships that SS couples might have with the very special relationship opposite sex couples could have. While the emotions regarding the individuals involved might be identical (the love they feel), only one situation ALSO comports with the way animals and people reproduce. So, there has been thousands and thousands of experiments over the years, yet no society that we are aware of saw fit to treat SS relationships the same as OS ones. Even those that predate Christian thought (so you can’t blame it on that). I grant you that there exists the possibility that some failed civilization we’re unaware of may have embraced what you seek now. But that doesn’t help you at all. Because that means that either such societies didn’t exist or they existed and something about them made them fail. And if every single society that equated SS couples with OS couples failed, that doesn’t make embracing SS marriage look like such an attractive notion. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/210 "2011-07-02T20:50:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: I don’t hate gays. And your comparison of their relationships to excrement, your “speculation” that they are plotting against marriage, your desire to persecute them are all glaring signs that you do indeed hate them. > > In other words, you want to stomp on them while making speeches about how nice a guy you are. Denial of special priveleges based on self gratification is not persecution. Beating gays, firing them from jobs, and refusing them housing IS persecution. I suppose if your friend murders someone you are in favor of murder in order to support your friend? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/211 "2011-07-02T20:52:12Z")
> [@David42](#): > > You started with the ad hominems and the moderator has been notified. In other words, you don’t like that I criticize your beliefs and are attempting to use the Mods as a threat to silence me. > [@David42](#): > > My motivation is irrelevant. Yet you keep going on about how great a guy you are and how all of your personal problems aren’t your fault but due to “permissiveness” and those awful gays. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/212 "2011-07-02T20:52:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ah, the old civilization becoming more enlightened ploy. It might interest you to know that homosexuality has been around since time immemorial. And during that time, there have been thousands and thousands of societal experiments that had different levels of acceptance for it. Yet, even in those societies in which it was a very accepted fact of life, they didn’t go as far as to equate the special relationships that SS couples might have with the very special relationship opposite sex couples could have. While the emotions regarding the individuals involved might be identical (the love they feel), only one situation ALSO comports with the way animals and people reproduce. > > So, there has been thousands and thousands of experiments over the years, yet no society that we are aware of saw fit to treat SS relationships the same as OS ones. Even those that predate Christian thought (so you can’t blame it on that). I grant you that there exists the possibility that some failed civilization we’re unaware of may have embraced what you seek now. But that doesn’t help you at all. Because that means that either such societies didn’t exist or they existed and something about them made them fail. And if every single society that equated SS couples with OS couples failed, that doesn’t make embracing SS marriage look like such an attractive notion. Good job exposing the “it’s good because it is modern” logical fallacy. I wish everyone here would educate themselves on the various fallacies before the get out to make an argument. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/213 "2011-07-02T20:53:00Z")
Dude, seriously. Metaphor school. Marriage isn’t a privilege that we grant to a select group. It’s available to anyone. Except gay people. Because…uh…no good reason, really. Some people find gay people “icky”. Most of the arguments being used to argue against same-sex marriage today are the same ones that were used to argue against interracial marriage in the 1950s and 1960s, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/214 "2011-07-02T20:53:18Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Do couples who decide against children sometimes wind up pregnant and raising a child anyway? Yes. Do people who think they are barren sometimes have a child anyway? Yes. > > Do gays, as a result of gay sex sometimes wind up conceiving a child? No. You have ignored the question. what about those who do not? It seems marriage is for breeding in your world. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/215 "2011-07-02T20:54:49Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Denial of special priveleges based on self gratification is not persecution. Marriage isn’t a special privilege. It’s available even to rapists and mass murderers; it couldn’t get _less_ “special”. > [@David42](#): > > I suppose if your friend murders someone you are in favor of murder in order to support your friend? And now you compare SSM to murder. But you don’t hate homosexuals, nope not at all. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/216 "2011-07-02T20:55:31Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Repeatedly the experts say that the parents are the primary influence on the child, meaning most important. But I never said gays raising children is unacceptable. Any parent is better than none. I did say it is not optimum and nothing but natural nuclear families should be promoted. But we’ll settle for less if its the best we can get. repeatedly, they’ve also shown, through actual science that children raised by gay couples as their primary caregivers do just as well or better academically, socially, emotionally, athletically and so on, than children raised by straight couples. It’s not optimum only in the sense that it’s equal with more traditional methods of raising kids. You keep saying it’s inferior, but from an objective standpoint, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/217 "2011-07-02T20:55:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, you don’t like that I criticize your beliefs and are attempting to use the Mods as a threat to silence me. > > Yet you keep going on about how great a guy you are and how all of your personal problems aren’t your fault but due to “permissiveness” and those awful gays. No, I dislike you addressing my personal qualities as an (invalid) argument technique and alerted the moderators because you are violating the rules which are intended to keep reasonable discussions reasonable, which is apparently impossible with you. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/218 "2011-07-02T20:57:08Z")
You think this is an unreasonable discussion? Oh, dear. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/219 "2011-07-02T20:58:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ah, the old civilization becoming more enlightened ploy. …Yet, even in those societies in which it was a very accepted fact of life, they didn’t go as far as to equate the special relationships that SS couples might have with the very special relationship opposite sex couples could have. Either you’re (A) supporting the observation that we’re _finally_ advancing, or (B) you’re differentiating between “special” and “very special”, utterly without either factual or moral basis. I’ll let you cop to (A), and allow that you’re just not realizing it, k? > [@](#): > > While the emotions regarding the individuals involved might be identical (the love they feel), only one situation ALSO comports with the way animals and people reproduce. And the tattered flag of “it’s to support children”, newly flown in response to the grave societal threat of letting the fudgepackers and muffmunchers use the same word as normal people, still hangs in the breeze … You might have observed, in your history lecture, that racial equality also was experimented with many times but never succeeded until we finally decided to make it succeed. But that would have undermined whatever point you still think you have left, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/220 "2011-07-02T20:58:35Z")
> [@David42](#): > > No, I dislike you addressing my personal qualities as an (invalid) argument technique and alerted the moderators because you are violating the rules which are intended to keep reasonable discussions reasonable, which is apparently impossible with you. No. You are just trying to get the mods to silence me because you can’t win with the nonexistent merits of your argument. That is of course the reason you are making such a point of _saying_ you’ve “alerted” the moderators, over and over again. It’s attempted intimidation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=12)