# My mom, divorced 3 times, thinks gay marriage will "ruin" marriage. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381 "2011-06-30T13:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/261 "2011-07-02T21:48:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The fact that the situation will never arise in which you can exercise that right does not mean that you do not have that right. The \*reason \*the situation will never arise, though, is derived from immutable physical reality. That fact that many gays cannot get married is derived only from the very-mutable actions and attitudes of their fellow humans. Perhaps you don’t see the difference. > > So, again, please explain your point. Rights never exist where there is no need for them. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/262 "2011-07-02T21:50:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > While you might think this qualifies as being newsworthy, it has nothing to do SSM. As much as you want it to be. You realize that bit of foot-stomping works the other way too, don’t you? > [@](#): > > Blacks and whites have been joining to have babies and start families for a time much longer than the U.S. has been around. Too bad you can’t make that same statement about SS couples. Sorry. When do you claim the first gay couple in history formed? 😃 Couples who have loved each other and wanted to live their lives together have been around even since before the founding of the US. _Even gay ones._ “Really, you could look it up!”, to quote a wise man. 😃 Now, maybe, just maybe, you could actually provide some historical support for your continued assertion that marriage is about babies. Instead of simply repeating your handwaving like a ceiling fan, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/263 "2011-07-02T21:51:11Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Rights never exist where there is no need for them. Of course they do. I have the right to free speech even when no one is trying to censor me, or if I’m not saying anything. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/264 "2011-07-02T21:51:22Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Rights never exist where there is no need for them. OK, now kindly explain how that applies to gay couples getting married. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/265 "2011-07-02T21:52:35Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > So you think that infertile people or post-menopausal women should be denied the right to marriage, then? See above, I have addressed this multiple times. If you can determine that this couple does not deserve the benefits of marriage because they can never have children, no children are possible to a certainty of 100%, and you can establish that without prying into their privacy, I would agree these people do not need the benefits of marriage. But I would disagree in the case of an already established marriage and one becomes infertile. They may save money to assist their adult children too, I think that is a reasonable interest of society. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/266 "2011-07-02T21:53:32Z")
> [@David42](#): > > The Constitution added equal protection in the context first and foremost of race. You won’t find that anywhere in it. You will find the words “all persons”, with no restrictions, though. > [@](#): > > Equal protection is about people who are the same getting treated differently for an issue that does not address the activity denied. Exactly, as in the cases of inheritance, medical decisionmaking, even taxation, IOW all the protections of the law which have not been equally provided. > [@](#): > > Gays would have to be able to conceive children the same as straights, with no one else’s help, for an equal protection violation to arise. Bzzt, wrong. See above. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/267 "2011-07-02T21:54:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > OK, now kindly explain how that applies to gay couples getting married. It is so tiresome to be asked the same thing over and over and answer it over and over. Gays do not need the right to marriage because they cannot have children. Its explained in more detail above. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/268 "2011-07-02T21:55:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Okay, I’ll play. Your analogy is that allowing the not-as-tall into the club dilutes its value to the tallest. But that is only true if tallness is a virtue, and the not as tall are not as virtuous, right? And the “dilution” part is only true if the tallest people generally consider tallness to be a virtue, right? It need not be a virtue. It is just a defining element of the participants in the club. For the purposes of the analogy, it is not good or bad, it is virtue-agnostic. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Then, if you’re serious about the analogy, it follows that you think straightness is a virtue, that the straight consider it one, and that they consider their straightness to be of less value if the not-straight are allowed equal protection. The first part implies the judgment about your values that you continue to deny, and the second part has not been borne out by experience _anywhere_. Nope. For _individuals_, I don’t think straightness or homosexuality is a virtue in and of itself. You are either attracted to the opposite sex or the same sex. End of story. I do believe, however, that it is a virtue _in the raising of children_. Men and women are different. They bring different things to the table. So, in the ideal situation, a child is being raised not just by two loving adults, but to loving adults comprised of one man and one woman. Either the board is screwed up right now or my connection. It’s taking forever for each page to load. I’ll be back later when hopefully things will be smoother. Unless, of course, you and all the other heterosexual couple haters 😛 have seen the light by then. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/269 "2011-07-02T21:55:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You won’t find that anywhere in it. You will find the words “all persons”, with no restrictions, though. > > Exactly, as in the cases of inheritance, medical decisionmaking, even taxation, IOW all the protections of the law which have not been equally provided. > > Bzzt, wrong. See above. In this context, it is now incumbent upon you to demonstrate that gays are the same as straights by proving they can have children on their own. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/270 "2011-07-02T21:56:08Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Gays do not need the right to marriage because they cannot have children. The gods themselves contend in vain. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/271 "2011-07-02T21:57:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It need not be a virtue. It is just a defining element of the participants in the club. For the purposes of the analogy, it is not good or bad, it is virtue-agnostic. Then there is no dilution. And that latest attempt by you at constructing an argument fails like the rest. > [@](#): > > Either the board is screwed up right now or my connection. It’s taking forever for each page to load. I’ll be back later when hopefully things will be smoother. Unless, of course, you and all the other heterosexual couple haters have seen the light by then. It seems to have worked just fine for that post, didn’t it? That was, however, a new variation on “I got nothing but can’t admit it”, for which you are to be congratulated. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/272 "2011-07-02T21:58:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course they do. I have the right to free speech even when no one is trying to censor me, or if I’m not saying anything. We have a need for free speech right now to prevent govenrment cencorship of ideas. It is being tested in various ways ALL THE TIME. You continue to apply all arguments to you as an individual when all my arguments are about society as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/273 "2011-07-02T21:58:42Z")
> [@David42](#): > > It is so tiresome to be asked the same thing over and over and answer it over and over. > > Gays do not need the right to marriage because they cannot have children. And again, that’s still a silly argument no matter how many times you repeat it, since marriage consists of a multitude of rights and privileges which have zero to do with children, and because straight couples who can’t or won’t have children can marry. Marriage is not about having children no matter how much the idea offends you. And homosexuals can adopt, find a donor or use more technological methods to have children. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/274 "2011-07-02T22:01:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You won’t find that anywhere in it. You will find the words “all persons”, with no restrictions, though. > > Exactly, as in the cases of inheritance, medical decisionmaking, even taxation, IOW all the protections of the law which have not been equally provided. > > Bzzt, wrong. See above. I forgot this, sorry. Even though it may not say it, the context of the times when an amendment was enacted is always appropriate if you really want to understand what it means. However, if you want to put it to another purpose than what it was intended, abandoning the context is usually a good idea. Usually the Suprteme Court considers the context, both literary and historical, of any particular clause in the Constitution, because intent is relevant to what the constitution means. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/275 "2011-07-02T22:04:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nope. For _individuals_, I don’t think straightness or homosexuality is a virtue in and of itself. You are either attracted to the opposite sex or the same sex. End of story. I do believe, however, that it is a virtue _in the raising of children_. Men and women are different. They bring different things to the table. So, in the ideal situation, a child is being raised not just by two loving adults, but to loving adults comprised of one man and one woman. Except that this has been proven not to be the case - there is no perceptible difference the welfare and happiness of children raised by two people of the same gender, as compared to people of two different genders. So this is not a valid reason to oppose SSM. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/276 "2011-07-02T22:06:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And again, that’s still a silly argument no matter how many times you repeat it, since marriage consists of a multitude of rights and privileges which have zero to do with children, and because straight couples who can’t or won’t have children can marry. Marriage is not about having children no matter how much the idea offends you. > > And homosexuals can adopt, find a donor or use more technological methods to have children. For six thousand years many people have read or heard “And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth,” and gone forth and married for this reason stated. (I present this culturally, not theologically.) You can say it has never been that way, but once again I want some evidence of what marriage was about in ancient times. “Go forth and get your jollies with one another” is what you are looking for, I think, based on y ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/277 "2011-07-02T22:07:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And again, that’s still a silly argument no matter how many times you repeat it, since marriage consists of a multitude of rights and privileges which have zero to do with children, and because straight couples who can’t or won’t have children can marry. Marriage is not about having children no matter how much the idea offends you. > > And homosexuals can adopt, find a donor or use more technological methods to have children. For six thousand years many people have read or heard “And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth,” and gone forth and married for this reason stated. (I present this culturally, not theologically.) You can say it has never been that way, but once again I want some evidence of what marriage was about in ancient times. “Go forth and get your jollies with one another” is what you are looking for, I think, based on your past statements that marriage is all about self-gratification. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/278 "2011-07-02T22:08:11Z")
Six thousand years, huh? Where’d you come up with that number? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/279 "2011-07-02T22:08:29Z")
> [@David42](#): > > For six thousand years many people have read or heard “And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth,” and gone forth and married for this reason stated. (I present this culturally, not theologically.) > > You can say it has never been that way, but once again I want some evidence of what marriage was about in ancient times. It was about men treating women as cattle, as property. And quite often about having multiple wives. What a bunch of ignorant barbarians with a vastly different and morally inferior culture did thousands of years ago is irrelevant. EDIT: And yeah. Six thousand years? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/280 "2011-07-02T22:09:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Except that this has been proven not to be the case - there is no perceptible difference the welfare and happiness of children raised by two people of the same gender, as compared to people of two different genders. So this is not a valid reason to oppose SSM. evidence please, of a relevant peer reviewed study that proves your point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=15)