# My mom, divorced 3 times, thinks gay marriage will "ruin" marriage. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381 "2011-06-30T13:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/301 "2011-07-03T00:14:35Z")
> [@David42](#): > > “Its better because it is modern” is a well recognized logical fallacy. Sorry, but ineffective argument. It remains you have no business redefining marriage. He didn’t say anything about better (although it is). He was pointing out that it doesn’t matter what the religious traditions of a dead culture from thousands of miles away were. > [@David42](#): > > Yep. And my argument is we need to change that so marriage means something again. For seventy years it has been dealt blow after blow. It’s been “dealt” improvement after improvement. I don’t want to go back to women being treated as male property, to marital rape and abuse being legal, to interracial marriage being illegal, to people being trapped in marriages against their will. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/302 "2011-07-03T00:15:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: What a cliche. First you start with the “gay agenda”, and now you say they intend to Corrupt The Youth. There certainly is an agenda. Are you saying that gays aren’t trying to normalize gay marriage and force a cultural shift in our concept of marriage. They are. Is my view invalid because it is popular? I hold the view that teaching kids gay is good is wrong. Let them figure those things out when it naturally occurs to them. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/303 "2011-07-03T00:17:44Z")
> [@David42](#): > > When I was young I had an anything goes attitude about sex. I even tried gay sex once. Didn’t care for it. Is anyone here not thinking he maybe ought to give it another try? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/304 "2011-07-03T00:19:10Z")
> [@David42](#): > > “Its better because it is modern” is a well recognized logical fallacy. Sorry, but ineffective argument. It remains you have no business redefining marriage. I’m not arguing that it’s better because it’s modern, I’m arguing that because it’s modern, its different from what is ancient, and therefore, the reasoning used to support its ancient form does not apply to its modern incarnation. Furthermore, that’s a pretty laughable post coming from someone who posted this: > [@](#): > > But I can’t find historical references that that is the core essence of marriage either. If “It’s better because it’s modern” isn’t a good argument, then neither is, “It’s better because it’s old.” > [@](#): > > Yep. And my argument is we need to change that so marriage means something again. For seventy years it has been dealt blow after blow. > > And that’s a big part of the problem Right. But gays are a _tiny_ part of the problem. Yet your focus (and the focus of people who think like you) is entirely on gays, and never on infertile couples, elderly couples, or deliberately child-free couples. It’s always about gays. Which, again, indicates that the problem isn’t couples who can’t have kids, the problem is couples who are gay, and the who fertility thing a smoke screen to make your prejudices sound reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/305 "2011-07-03T00:21:08Z")
> [@David42](#): > > There certainly is an agenda. Are you saying that gays aren’t trying to normalize gay marriage and force a cultural shift in our concept of marriage. They are. You “speculated” that they had some sort of plot to destroy marriage. > [@David42](#): > > Is my view invalid because it is popular? I hold the view that teaching kids gay is good is wrong. Let them figure those things out when it naturally occurs to them. Your view is invalid because it is irrational, baseless and destructive. And considering the amount of bigotry, abuse and violence gay kids and for that matter gay adults put up with, refusing to tell kids that being gay is "good’ is barbaric. I suppose you’d prefer that we tell it to their graves after they suicide or are murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/306 "2011-07-03T00:23:01Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Benefits for self-gratification? That’s what I’m against. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you use the phrase “self-gratification” as a way of denigrating gay relationships. Why do you insist on portraying gay relationships as selfish? In what way are gay relationships more selfish than heterosexual relationships? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/307 "2011-07-03T00:27:47Z")
Notice that **David42** still hasn’t explained exactly how SSM will harm heterosexual marriages? Despite repeated requests from multiple people? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is anyone here not thinking he maybe ought to give it another try? It’s hard not to think of that. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/308 "2011-07-03T00:33:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He didn’t say anything about better (although it is). He was pointing out that it doesn’t matter what the religious traditions of a dead culture from thousands of miles away were. Arguing “we have to do it because its modern” is the same thing, regardless of whether it actually is better. It is still the fallacy. When you argue that man has never centered marriage around child rearing it is entirely relevant for me to point out a culture that did. And they are far from alone, and generations throughout gobs of nations followed suit and do it to this day in many cultures. Your claim is basically history has no relevancy. Good one. Your argument was about history. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s been “dealt” improvement after improvement. yeah I see plainly where I see evil you see good and vice versa. But your following list isn’t against any of what I said. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t want to go back to women being treated as male property, to marital rape and abuse being legal, to interracial marriage being illegal, to people being trapped in marriages against their will. Women have been shown a whole lot more respect traditionally than you believe. There have always been huge distinctions between property and wives. There are certainly bad examples of husbands, but the worngdoing of some does not the standard make. Any husband commits a serious offense against his wife has been taken seriously for some time in most anglo-american jurisdictions. There were some holdouts in the south notoriously. But rape is wrong and so are beatings. But there is no need to make a little shoving or a broken dish a mandatory arrest, or throw one person out with no notice and no evidence. I guess your value system does not recognize disruptions like that to be harm. I do. Kids need stability, but they also need to see some arguments and how to resolve them afterwards. If your marriage is obtained by fraud that was always grounds for divorce. Otherwise, you exercise your will when you say the vows. Take it seriously. Following lust after the fact causes more harm than good to the kids, stick to your word. Are you against people sticking to their word in other contracts? Or is any frivolous reason good to not honor any other kind of contract? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/309 "2011-07-03T00:39:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you use the phrase “self-gratification” as a way of denigrating gay relationships. Why do you insist on portraying gay relationships as selfish? In what way are gay relationships more selfish than heterosexual relationships? I’m largely arguing that to der trihs who earlier conceded the purpose of marriage is self-gratification in furtherance of his pro-gay argument stance. I didn’t mean it to put gays down but to make a showing against it as a fundamental basis for marriage. But there’s a lot of self gratifying people out there of all persuasions. Most, probably, but I try not to take such a dim view of humanity. Nevertheless, if two heterosexuals base their relationship on nothing but self-gratification, I’m against that too. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/310 "2011-07-03T00:43:26Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Arguing “we have to do it because its modern” is the same thing, regardless of whether it actually is better. It is still the fallacy. Except that’s not what **Miller** was arguing; he was pointing out that it isn’t about having children, now. And hasn’t been for a long time. And what a bunch of barbarians did a few thousand years ago is irrelevant. > [@David42](#): > > yeah I see plainly where I see evil you see good and vice versa. But your following list isn’t against any of what I said.] Yes it is; you oppose no fault divorce, which means you support people being forced to stay marry regardless of how much they hate each other. > [@David42](#): > > Women have been shown a whole lot more respect traditionally than you believe. There have always been huge distinctions between property and wives. There are certainly bad examples of husbands, but the worngdoing of some does not the standard make. > > Any husband commits a serious offense against his wife has been taken seriously for some time in most anglo-american jurisdictions. There were some holdouts in the south notoriously. But rape is wrong and so are beatings. Please. Until fairly recently, abuse was generally ignored and raping your wife was perfectly legal. > [@David42](#): > > If your marriage is obtained by fraud that was always grounds for divorce. Otherwise, you exercise your will when you say the vows. Take it seriously. > > Following lust after the fact causes more harm than good to the kids, stick to your word. Oh, please. A home run by two people who hate each other and are utterly miserable is not some sort of noble example for kids to to live up to. > [@David42](#): > > Are you against people sticking to their word in other contracts? Or is any frivolous reason good to not honor any other kind of contract? It depends on the contract. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/311 "2011-07-03T00:46:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Notice that **David42** still hasn’t explained exactly how SSM will harm heterosexual marriages? Despite repeated requests from multiple people? > > It’s hard not to think of that. That’s because you think it is good to let people abandon their responsibilities for frivolous reasons and I don’t. What I call damage you call good, and what you call damage I call good. When you have concerns for our people’s traditonal views so that we have some common ground, maybe we could have a debate but you’re speaking a foreign language to me. We’d first have to agree on a definition of damage, I see. Take some lessons from Bill Clinton’s book, did ya? Personally I liked him for a lot of reasons but that one was way dumb…“Define ‘IS.’” Some people use obstructionist nitpicking debate strategies and debate is not possible with them, its just a song and dance around any meaningful dialog. I suspect some legislators approve it just cause they are sick of this constant nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/312 "2011-07-03T01:00:24Z")
> [@David42](#): > > We’d first have to agree on a definition of damage, I see. Take some lessons from Bill Clinton’s book, did ya? Agreeing on the meaning of the words you are using is kind of important in a debate. Otherwise you end up talking past everyone. > [@](#): > > Personally I liked him for a lot of reasons but that one was way dumb…“Define ‘IS.’” It actually worked, but it’s not worth getting into. That was Clinton being a lawyer in court. > [@](#): > > I suspect some legislators approve it just cause they are sick of this constant nonsense. For the most part, they approved it because they decided that was the correct strategy politically. That’s the first and foremost concern for politicians. By the way, I saw earlier that you said every state that has legalized gay marriage (before New York) did it through the courts. That’s incorrect. Vermont and New Hampshire both legalized civil unions through laws, and court decisions later changed these to full marriages, and Washington DC did it through a law as well. This list is going to get longer, as you can tell. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/313 "2011-07-03T01:00:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except that’s not what **Miller** was arguing; he was pointing out that it isn’t about having children, now. And hasn’t been for a long time. And what a bunch of barbarians did a few thousand years ago is irrelevant. Let’s stick to calling them Hebrews unless you wanna define barbarian and prove they were it. Colorful words don’t really have any purpose but to inflame passion. Debate is about getting around that. And it was entirely relevant to your claim no one ever based marriage on child rearing, even if your its worng cause its old argument were valid. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes it is; you oppose no fault divorce, which means you support people being forced to stay marry regardless of how much they hate each other. And guess what? That was a grounds for divorce before no fault divorce came along. I am against utter hatred. But no fault divorce makes it too easy, and it gets abused. The abusers receive society’s blessing and never learn what a good quality it is to do what you say, that your word is good. You should have to prove your marriage is in a very bad way and can’t be fixed. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Please. Until fairly recently, abuse was generally ignored and raping your wife was perfectly legal. I know of murder convictions and other punishments for wicked husbands that are pretty old. Many of the northern states immediately made raping or seriously abusing your wife illegal, as it was in england before. It is minor stuff that was largely ignored as it should be. Invaluable to teach kids about conflict and resolution. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. A home run by two people who hate each other and are utterly miserable is not some sort of noble example for kids to to live up to. Never said it was. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It depends on the contract How about the one an individual makes with the state when he buys a lottery ticket? Should that be enforced, or can the state say, i dunno i just don’t feel like it cause my coffee was weak this morning? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/314 "2011-07-03T01:02:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Agreeing on the meaning of the words you are using is kind of important in a debate. Otherwise you end up talking past everyone. > It actually worked, but it’s not worth getting into. That was Clinton being a lawyer in court. > For the most part, they approved it because they decided that was the correct strategy politically. That’s the first and foremost concern for politicians. By the way, I saw earlier that you said every state that has legalized gay marriage (before New York) did it through the courts. That’s incorrect. Vermont and New Hampshire both legalized civil unions through laws, and court decisions later changed these to full marriages, and Washington DC did it through a law as well. This list is going to get longer, as you can tell. If I didn’t say through legislators and courts I meant to. Sorry. Yes, you are correct, its not just the courts. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/315 "2011-07-03T01:03:29Z")
> [@David42](#): > > That’s because you think it is good to let people abandon their responsibilities for frivolous reasons and I don’t. You lost me. Isn’t your whole argument that gays _ **shouldn’t** _ be allowed to enter into a marriage contract? Isn’t the _ **other** _ side effectively arguing that we should make it harder for people to abandon such responsibilities? ---
**Author:** ![Dusty\_Rose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@Dusty\_Rose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dusty_Rose)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/316 "2011-07-03T01:06:10Z")
> [@David42](#): > > That’s because you think it is good to let people abandon their responsibilities for frivolous reasons and I don’t. What I call damage you call good, and what you call damage I call good. > > When you have concerns for our people’s traditonal views so that we have some common ground, maybe we could have a debate but you’re speaking a foreign language to me. > > We’d first have to agree on a definition of damage, I see. Take some lessons from Bill Clinton’s book, did ya? Personally I liked him for a lot of reasons but that one was way dumb…“Define ‘IS.’” Some people use obstructionist nitpicking debate strategies and debate is not possible with them, its just a song and dance around any meaningful dialog. > > I suspect some legislators approve it just cause they are sick of this constant nonsense. I have read this entire thread with great interest. But I don’t understand this answer… if I’m reading correctly, **Der Trihs** and many others have asked you to explain exactly how SSM will harm heterosexual marriages. Your answer is that he/she thinks it is good to let people abandon their responsibilities for frivolous reasons and you don’t? Aside from fact that it appears you are pretending to know **Der Trihs’** motivation, (which upset you greatly a few pages back), I don’t understand how that answers the question. Could you perhaps rephrase it? ---
**Author:** ![Dusty\_Rose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@Dusty\_Rose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dusty_Rose)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/317 "2011-07-03T01:10:16Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I know of murder convictions and other punishments for wicked husbands that are pretty old. Many of the northern states immediately made raping or seriously abusing your wife illegal, as it was in england before. It is minor stuff that was largely ignored as it should be. Invaluable to teach kids about conflict and resolution. I’d really like to address this because you’ve said it twice now. The first US laws against raping your wife were in the mid _1970’s_. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/318 "2011-07-03T01:12:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You lost me. Isn’t your whole argument that gays _ **shouldn’t** _ be allowed to enter into a marriage contract? Isn’t the _ **other** _ side effectively arguing that we should make it harder for people to abandon such responsibilities? My argument is that marriage is in such a state of disrepair after seventy years of consistent systematic legislation making it frivilous that we cannot afford to do anything else that might harm it. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/319 "2011-07-03T01:15:57Z")
> [@Dusty\_Rose](#): > > I’d really like to address this because you’ve said it twice now. The first US laws against raping your wife were in the mid _1970’s_. It was against common law and rape was a crime irrelevant of your relationship with the woman. Some states wrote statutes changing that, so a husband could rape his wife, because they took a different view. Some states didn’t need to write statutes because they held the other view and probably wrote them in the seventies to look good to women’s libbers and to show how different they were from other states. You don’t need a statute where there isn’t a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/320 "2011-07-03T01:15:59Z")
> [@David42](#): > > That’s because you think it is good to let people abandon their responsibilities for frivolous reasons and I don’t. What I call damage you call good, and what you call damage I call good. Because you apparently have no concern for the happiness or desires of others. Or the elimination of racism or the rights of women. > [@David42](#): > > When you have concerns for our people’s traditonal views so that we have some common ground, maybe we could have a debate but you’re speaking a foreign language to me. I’m not interested in traditional values like racism, sexism, or religious dogma. > [@David42](#): > > And it was entirely relevant to your claim no one ever based marriage on child rearing, even if your its worng cause its old argument were valid. I don’t recall ever claiming that. > [@David42](#): > > And guess what? That was a grounds for divorce before no fault divorce came along. I am against utter hatred. But no fault divorce makes it too easy, and it gets abused. The abusers receive society’s blessing and never learn what a good quality it is to do what you say, that your word is good. You should have to prove your marriage is in a very bad way and can’t be fixed. No you shouldn’t. It’s not your right to torment two people just so you can impose your fantasy of what marriage is supposed to be like on them. > [@David42](#): > > I know of murder convictions and other punishments for wicked husbands that are pretty old. Many of the northern states immediately made raping or seriously abusing your wife illegal, as it was in england before. It is minor stuff that was largely ignored as it should be. Invaluable to teach kids about conflict and resolution. Yeah, like raping your wife. She should just shut up and spread her legs like a good slave, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=17)