# My mom, divorced 3 times, thinks gay marriage will "ruin" marriage. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381 "2011-06-30T13:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/421 "2011-07-03T17:08:05Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Look, it is really very simple: If our birth rate continues to fall and falls low enough, and the chinese for instance continue to increase their population at a significantly higher rate, we will not be able to fight them off if they decide America is a new part of China and invade us. > > It is a legitimate government interest to encourage procreation. LOL, now you are grasping at straws. Earlier in the thread it was pointed out that birthrates among immigrants are highest, so it would follow that the US government should be increasing immigration to boost the population. Teen pregnancies are up in the areas of the country which don’t teach birth control, so I guess the government is on the right track by funding those abstinence only programs. Heck, maybe they should ban birth control altogether. I fail to see how a few percent of the population marrying each other would have anywhere near the impact of those measures. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/422 "2011-07-03T17:08:08Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > So you support restricting marriage to only those people who are able to naturally conceive children together? That is what logically follows from this argument. If you don’t support that, then you must have some other reason for wanting to restrict marriage from gay people. What might that reason be? No I do not. If you recall I said something about privacy and being able to see this on the face of things without any prying. It may logically flow, or you may merely think it does, but it isn’t what I said. If you can conceive of a test for straight couples that doesn’t violate privacy, I might consider adopting that view. that reason would be the destruction of the concept of marriage as we currently understand it. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/423 "2011-07-03T17:09:34Z")
Oh, it does logically flow, I assure you. So I’ll ask again: Since you don’t support restricting marriage to only those people who can conceive a child together naturally, what are your grounds for restricting marriage from gay people? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/424 "2011-07-03T17:12:52Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > LOL, now you are grasping at straws. Earlier in the thread it was pointed out that birthrates among immigrants are highest, so it would follow that the US government should be increasing immigration to boost the population. Teen pregnancies are up in the areas of the country which don’t teach birth control, so I guess the government is on the right track by funding those abstinence only programs. Heck, maybe they should ban birth control altogether. I fail to see how a few percent of the population marrying each other would have anywhere near the impact of those measures. Competing government interests do not nullify other interests. Sometimes it is very difficult to make it all work as a seamless whole. There is a difference between an immigrant and someone here illegally. If they aren’t here legally, we do not have a legitimate interest in increasing the numbers of the lawless. Defense is the number one most overwhelming reason to even have a government to begin with, and you simply dismiss it as a joke. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/425 "2011-07-03T17:14:06Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Oh, it does logically flow, I assure you. So I’ll ask again: Since you don’t support restricting marriage to only those people who can conceive a child together naturally, what are your grounds for restricting marriage from gay people? I believe I answered that in my last post to you. Is it funny to ask me to repeat myself? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/426 "2011-07-03T17:16:04Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > This is true. It is also true that if my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a bus. How enlightening. I should have thought of that myself. Silly me. Actually, wouldn’t she just be a person with wheels? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/427 "2011-07-03T17:16:22Z")
> [@David42](#): > > If a judge or an adoption agency hears or sees evidence along the lines of “we want a child to prove we are good parents so we can secure our rights as a gay family” they should be more critical than when the evidence points to “we love this child and even if we’re not perfect we think we’re his best option.” Cite for this happening, please. I’m having trouble imagining a gay couple adopting a child when they don’t want one just so other gay couples can adopt other children. And then there’s the question of why an adoption agency would sign off on such a thing. > [@](#): > > Don’t you want gays treated the same as straights? :rolleyes: Yes. I think they should be able to have their marriages recognized and adopt children under the same rules as straight people. > [@](#): > > You can disapprove of my opinion all you want, but its you who looks bad when its clear you manipulate what I say. I haven’t manipulated a word of what you said. > [@](#): > > And a shack is a Ford factory. gotcha. This is more of a dodge than a Ford. A marriage between two gay men does not affect your marriage to a woman. > [@](#): > > the level of ludicrous is amazing. It is absolutely true, and it is a reason for different standards. It’s not, though. Gays have children all the time, and there’s no reason to treat them differently. > [@magellan01](#): > > Actually, they’s what they used to be asking for: tolerance, respect. Then they wanted acceptance. And that was all right and proper. And that’s why nobody opposed those requests. _Hmm, wait a minute…_ > [@](#): > > But now they are asking everyone to embrace a fantasy in which A + A = A + B, in which A and B have very real differences, particularly as it regards child rearing. Which, like it or not, is very tightly related to families and the traditional way them have been raised in our society. They are equal, and the data does not support your point that it’s a fantasy. What’s traditional doesn’t concern me. Marriage has changed before and now it’s changed again. > [@](#): > > I think this is flatly wrong. That is exactly what they are trying to do. And you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > They are trying to destroy the one we have and replace it with the concept that there is nothing special about the situation in which a married man and a woman raise a family. They are trying to strip that relationship, which is rooted in nature, of its specialness. Your relationship isn’t special. Any two idiots who forget a condom can reproduce and get married. There’s no reason for society to treat a marriage between a man and a woman as more special than a marriage between two men or two women. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/428 "2011-07-03T17:16:32Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > And what **Marley** said is absolutely true. I have many gay and lesbian friends with children, both biological and adopted. The statement that “gay people cannot have children” is demonstrably false. Do you really see no difference in how a traditional married OS couple can have children (and have been having them all this time) And the way a gay couple “can have children”? Do you really acknowledge zero difference? Why is it so hard to accept that on the one hand gays are capable of the emotional ties as straight couples and push to have society recognize that fully, and on the other hand accept that SS relationships and OS relationship are not equivalent when it comes to children? It seems that you’re ignoring some blatantly obvious differences, that you’re willing to contort reality. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/429 "2011-07-03T17:17:38Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Oh, it does logically flow, I assure you. So I’ll ask again: Since you don’t support restricting marriage to only those people who can conceive a child together naturally, what are your grounds for restricting marriage from gay people? “I assure you” is an appeal to your personal authority and a debate no-no unless you are in fact an authority on a relevant subject. Are you? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/430 "2011-07-03T17:18:44Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I believe I answered that in my last post to you. Is it funny to ask me to repeat myself? Sorry, I missed the last sentence. Please provide your reasons for believing that “the destruction of the current concept of marriage” will cause societal harm. If you like, you can use data from Canada, as they’ve had legalized same-sex marriage for six years now. Or Sweden, legal for two years. Or Spain, six years just like Canada. Or the Netherlands, ten whole years there. You should be able to get pretty good data from the Netherlands on how the fabric of their society has crumbled due to same-sex marriage having been legalized for an entire decade. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/431 "2011-07-03T17:19:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you really see no difference in how a traditional married OS couple can have children (and have been having them all this time) And the way a gay couple “can have children”? Do you really acknowledge zero difference? What’s to acknowledge? Straight couples use surrogates all the time and we don’t downgrade their marriages as a result. > [@](#): > > SS relationships and OS relationship are not equivalent when it comes to children? How? Straight couples can have children via surrogates and adoption. Gay people can have children through sex with a person of the opposite gender, through adoption, and through surrogacy. Both can choose to be childless. None of these methods are unique to same-sex or opposite-sex marriage, and there’s no reason to treat them differently. One romantic partnership is as good as another. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/432 "2011-07-03T17:20:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you really see no difference in how a traditional married OS couple can have children (and have been having them all this time) And the way a gay couple “can have children”? Do you really acknowledge zero difference? I have straight married friends that went to Russia to adopt their children; I have gay friends (unmarried, as they are in a state that does not recognize same-sex marriage) that adopted their children out of the foster system. I do not recognize any significant difference between these two perfectly valid methods of having children, no. And I do not believe that the theoretical ability of a couple to conceive a child naturally has any bearing whatsoever on the validity of their marriage or lack thereof. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/433 "2011-07-03T17:22:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Your relationship isn’t special. Any two idiots who forget a condom can reproduce and get married. There’s no reason for society to treat a marriage between a man and a woman as more special than a marriage between two men or two women. Not special but different. Gay guys who forget condoms for gay sex have been popping babies out for a long time, right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/434 "2011-07-03T17:23:22Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Gay guys who forget condoms for gay sex have been popping babies out for a long time, right? I think most of us finished the fourth grade and understand reproduction. What you have failed to explain is why we need to treat gay couples differently from straight couples. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/435 "2011-07-03T17:23:28Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Not special but different. > > Gay guys who forget condoms for gay sex have been popping babies out for a long time, right? You’ve already said that you don’t believe marriage should be restricted to only those couples that can naturally conceive a child. Are you reversing your position? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/436 "2011-07-03T17:24:25Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I have straight married friends that went to Russia to adopt their children; I have gay friends (unmarried, as they are in a state that does not recognize same-sex marriage) that adopted their children out of the foster system. I do not recognize any significant difference between these two perfectly valid methods of having children, no. And I do not believe that the theoretical ability of a couple to conceive a child naturally has any bearing whatsoever on the validity of their marriage or lack thereof. Theorys are the highest categorization of proof in science. It’s not a theory unless its well proven. Something less is a hypothesis. But you use it to pretend we do not really know that straight people have an ability to conceive (in general)? You are comparing adoptions to adoptions while we are talking about natural procreation. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/437 "2011-07-03T17:26:08Z")
For someone who professes not to think that marriage should be restricted only to couples that can naturally conceive a child, you certainly are spending a lot of time defending that position. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/438 "2011-07-03T17:27:31Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > You’ve already said that you don’t believe marriage should be restricted to only those couples that can naturally conceive a child. Are you reversing your position? You ahven’t addressed a lot of what I said on the issue. No I am not reversing my position. If it doesn’t make sense to you, read it again a few times and look for a light that it makes sense in. That’s what we do when we TRY to understand one another. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/439 "2011-07-03T17:28:32Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > For someone who professes not to think that marriage should be restricted only to couples that can naturally conceive a child, you certainly are spending a lot of time defending that position. Address the privacy concerns please. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/440 "2011-07-03T17:28:35Z")
Excellent. So you agree that marriage should not be restricted only to those couples that can naturally conceive a child. You also cannot show any societal harm that would be caused by gay couples legally marrying. And so it appears we are on the same page. This is good news, since I have actual work to get done today. 🙂 Enjoy the rest of your Sunday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=23)