# My mom, divorced 3 times, thinks gay marriage will "ruin" marriage. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381 "2011-06-30T13:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/601 "2011-07-04T07:05:02Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > The funny thing is, the first result a google search turns up is… this thread. Not so common, I guess. What, specifically did you google? ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/602 "2011-07-04T07:05:50Z")
> [@David42](#): > > do you know how search engines work? Yes, and I have provided cites. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/603 "2011-07-04T07:06:52Z")
> [@David42](#): > > You mean the harassment on this issue is FRIVOLOUS from people who don’t care about it? You’re not being harassed. You’re being asked to demonstrate the truth of what you are saying. > [@](#): > > Its not that I can’t. No, I don’t think you can. If you could answer any of these questions, you could have done it pages ago. “You’re asking too many questions” isn’t a sensible excuse. > [@](#): > > all denying various things we all should know. It should be obvious to you by now that the things you think are common knowledge and “things we all should know” actually are not. This is mostly because the things you are saying are factually wrong. Saying over and over again “you know I’m right” is not an argument. > [@](#): > > And you seriously believe gay activists do not encourage other gays. You’re misstating your own post now. You said gay activists are publishing magazine articles and things to encourage other gays to participate in studies about gay adoption, and further, you implied this makes survey results unreliable and that some of them were adopting children they didn’t even want just so they could participate in the studies and make gay marriage look good. (That was especially silly.) Wouldn’t it be easier to just admit you can’t prove it and that your friend was talking out his ass? > [@](#): > > I don’t believe any of you guys know nothing about any of those things. It’s the truth. Sorry: the world does not unanimously share **David42** ’s convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/604 "2011-07-04T07:10:47Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Its not that I can’t. It is mostly being overwhelmed by multiple posts all at the same time all denying various things we all should know. At the same time I deal with misstated quotes like der trihs saying I said gay marriage must not be allowed because it is disgusting. No, you keep making baseless claims, then insisting that everyone should know them. And you keep distorting what I say, regardless of how many times I correct you. > [@David42](#): > > But nobody will say they know it is known that the bible says be frutiful and multiply. No. Nobody cared but you. No one but you thought it was important in any way. You just kept bringing it up like it mattered and getting huffy when nobody cared. > [@David42](#): > > Nobody knows that divorce rates steadily went up for decades while the crime rate also went up and all the experts on the news talked about the cause and effect of broken homes on crime. Except that in recent years crime has gone down. > [@David42](#): > > I’m supposed to prove gay aprents are bad when I never claimed it. Yes you did, repeatedly. > [@David42](#): > > I don’t believe any of you guys know nothing about any of those things. Since most of your claims are baseless on your part, it isn’t surprising we don’t “know” them. > [@David42](#): > > If a more debate like environment were fostered here, I’d be more willing to believe you really think its not true, but excepting a couple, this really isn’t much like debate. Its more like a thourough confusing of all issues and who said what and who didn’t and no one to decide who needs to prove what. No, it’s you throwing out a bunch of baseless nonsense to justify your desire to persecute homosexuals and most people in the thread demanding evidence. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/605 "2011-07-04T07:14:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, I’m not taking your assertion that it’s common knowledge seriously. Because if it was actually common knowledge as opposed to a bunch of nonsense you heard from some uninformed nitwit, it would have been easy for you to post a cite instead of shucking and jiving for a couple of pages. So until you can prove it, I’m going to say it’s not common knowledge and it isn’t happening. And that the ideas that were associated with it - that the surveys were unreliable because gays were manipulating the results, and that gay couples were adopting children just to affect survey data - is just stupid. “that the surveys were unreliable because gays were manipulating the results,” see, there are just too many variables that are similar to what I said but not what I said and people still bringing up stuff that I partially retracted. No one is willing to resolve impasses in how debates ought to work except to say your side is right. I don’t care how many of you play this game. I never said gays manipulate survey data. quit the games and be agreeable and stop arguing your own authority–meaning “I don’t know so it can’t be true.” Tell you what, I will fetch you a link to a guide to logical fallacies. I honestly believe you really do not know about that. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/606 "2011-07-04T07:21:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, you keep making baseless claims, then insisting that everyone should know them. And you keep distorting what I say, regardless of how many times I correct you. > > No. Nobody cared but you. No one but you thought it was important in any way. You just kept bringing it up like it mattered and getting huffy when nobody cared. > > Except that in recent years crime has gone down. > > Yes you did, repeatedly. > > Since most of your claims are baseless on your part, it isn’t surprising we don’t “know” them. > > No, it’s you throwing out a bunch of baseless nonsense to justify your desire to persecute homosexuals and most people in the thread demanding evidence. You have been abusing, bullying, misquoting, making insults at me since my first post. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/607 "2011-07-04T07:27:53Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I never said gays manipulate survey data. You said repeatedly that you were concerned they were adopting children just so same-sex couples would look good. It wasn’t limited to survey data alone, but you suggested they were adopting children just to manipulate the public image of same-sex couples. > [@David42](#): > > Plus your argument ignores my concession that we ought to protect homosexual couples raising children so long as they did not simply obtain a child to further a social agenda. […] There have been calls in the gay literature for all gay couples to adopt so that they can prove their value as families. This is wrong. > [@David42](#): > > Especially if the children are obtained by these families as pawns to create the evidence rather than love of the child for itself. > [@David42](#): > > Do you recall news stories where gay activists called for gay parents to participate in studies? Answer YES. > [@David42](#): > > It is common knowledge. I do not have to prove that gay activists have made a call for gay families to participate in studies. We all know it is true. > [@David42](#): > > Read some gay literature. There have been calls by the activists to show the world stable gay families. Other than that, I have stated my opinion that if it occurs we should have a safeguard. Of course you also said > [@David42](#): > > There is no evidence that gays do as good a job. And we now know you were completely wrong. There have been dozens of studies on same-sex couples for many years, and they show same sex couple do just as well as raising children. You were wrong about that, and your argument about gays damaging marriage has collapsed so badly that you’re left trying to win an argument about surveys rather than about your original point. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/608 "2011-07-04T07:30:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, you keep making baseless claims, then insisting that everyone should know them. And you keep distorting what I say, regardless of how many times I correct you. > > No. Nobody cared but you. No one but you thought it was important in any way. You just kept bringing it up like it mattered and getting huffy when nobody cared. > > Except that in recent years crime has gone down. > > Yes you did, repeatedly. > > Since most of your claims are baseless on your part, it isn’t surprising we don’t “know” them. > > No, it’s you throwing out a bunch of baseless nonsense to justify your desire to persecute homosexuals and most people in the thread demanding evidence. Questioning or disputing the accuracy of another poster’s statements–“I don’t think that’s right”, “That’s incorrect”, “You are mistaken”, or even “That’s not true”-- is what Great Debates is all about. **However, questioning the intent of another poster in making an arguably false statement–e.g., “You are a liar”, “You are lying”, “That is a lie”, “That’s not true and you darned well know it isn’t true”–is crossing the line into attacking the other poster rather than attacking the other poster’s arguments, and will be considered a violation of the rules of the forum.** bold emphasis is mine. MEBuckner in the stickies. I note he discusses attacking a person’s motivations, here. I think claiming my arguments are nothing but to persecute gays qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/609 "2011-07-04T07:31:20Z")
> [@David42](#): > > You have been abusing, bullying, misquoting, making insults at me since my first post. > [@David42](#): > > I note he discusses attacking a person’s motivations, here. I think claiming my arguments are nothing but to persecute gays qualifies. You are incorrect, and you will leave the moderating to the moderators from now on. I am getting tired of dealing with this. If you junior moderate again I will lock the thread and warn you formally. Throughout this thread you’ve been accusing people of abusing you, ganging up on you, and of being dishonest (by saying they are playing dumb and ignoring things they know to be true). This entire conversation has become pointless and it won’t take much to convince me to shut it down. If you want to keep it going, stop doing this. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/610 "2011-07-04T07:33:04Z")
**David42** , using your debating tactics, what’s to stop me from making any claim I like, and then saying “It’s common knowledge! It’s common knowledge! It’s common knowledge!” when questioned as to the evidence for it? E.g., I claim it’s common knowledge that Bill Clinton had polio as a child. You’ve never heard that, and find it unlikely. No one else in the thread seems to have heard it either. You all ask me for evidence. I refuse to provide any, and say “It’s common knowledge that Bill Clinton had polio as a child. My buddy Greg heard it on the news. It’s common knowledge! Why are you being so obstructionist as to not acknowledge it?”. You remain unconvinced, but I continue to insist it’s common knowledge, that if you asked your friends, you’d find most of them know that Bill Clinton had polio as a child. You find that doubtful, so I began shouting how, if there were a debate judge, they would almost certainly declare that “Yes, it’s common knowledge that Bill Clinton had polio as a child”, at least if they had any integrity. You are rather unimpressed with the weight of evidence I can bring to bear on the claim. Do you see how what you are doing is just the same thing? Or are you convinced now that Bill Clinton had polio as a child? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/611 "2011-07-04T07:39:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You said repeatedly that you were concerned they were adopting children just so same-sex couples would look good. It wasn’t limited to survey data alone, but you suggested they were adopting children just to manipulate the public image of same-sex couples. > > Of course you also said > > And we now know you were completely wrong. There have been dozens of studies on same-sex couples for many years, and they show same sex couple do just as well as raising children. You were wrong about that, and your argument about gays damaging marriage has collapsed so badly that you’re left trying to win an argument about surveys rather than about your original point. As a moderator I think maybe you might should take a look at some of the peripheral bullshit going on here. der trihs has more than once and again just now is making character assasinations about my motivations. he stopped yesterday but just can’t stop talking about my lies in order to persecute gays. Its in the rules, I have asked him politely to stop, and he doesn’t. Please deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/612 "2011-07-04T07:40:41Z")
> [@David42](#): > > As a moderator I think maybe you might should take a look at some of the peripheral bullshit going on here. > > der trihs has more than once and again just now is making character assasinations about my motivations. he stopped yesterday but just can’t stop talking about my lies in order to persecute gays. > > Its in the rules, I have asked him politely to stop, and he doesn’t. > > Please deal with it. That’s your reply to \*that \*post? Seriously? You don’t have any integrity, do you? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/613 "2011-07-04T07:46:28Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > **David42** , using your debating tactics, what’s to stop me from making any claim I like, and then saying “It’s common knowledge! It’s common knowledge! It’s common knowledge!” when questioned as to the evidence for it? > > E.g., I claim it’s common knowledge that Bill Clinton had polio as a child. You’ve never heard that, and find it unlikely. No one else in the thread seems to have heard it either. You all ask me for evidence. I refuse to provide any, and say “It’s common knowledge that Bill Clinton had polio as a child. My buddy Greg heard it on the news. It’s common knowledge! Why are you being so obstructionist as to not acknowledge it?”. You remain unconvinced, but I continue to insist it’s common knowledge, that if you asked your friends, you’d find most of them know that Bill Clinton had polio as a child. You find that doubtful, so I began shouting how, if there were a debate judge, they would almost certainly declare that “Yes, it’s common knowledge that Bill Clinton had polio as a child”, at least if they had any integrity. You are rather unimpressed with the weight of evidence I can bring to bear on the claim. > > Do you see how what you are doing is just the same thing? Or are you convinced now that Bill Clinton had polio as a child? I would have kept my word and provided a cite if Marley would have said a simple, I asked three people and they all said no, at her word, even if she didn’t really do it. Would have been solved then. I’m up to four people now and one doesn’t remember gay activists in the news. Most remeber a lot of things gay activists have said. Do you have an alternate proposal for a way to work common knowledge other than abandoning common knowledge or accepting the logical fallacy of “I don’t know so most can’t?” “No one else in the thread seems to have heard it either.” would be a little more meaningful if it wasn’t actually “No one else in the thread who disagrees with you seems to have heard it either.” Notice everyone who is making this claim just happens to take the opposite position from me. Proponents of gay marriage alone disagree about common knowledge. Convenient, with all the various things they claim not to know. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/614 "2011-07-04T07:47:39Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Please deal with it. I don’t do requests. And I just asked you to stop trying to moderate this thread on your own, so I have no choice but to step this up and warn you formally. If you want to keep this discussion going, stop complaining and bring cites. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/615 "2011-07-04T07:52:02Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I would have kept my word and provided a cite if Marley would have said a simple, I asked three people and they all said no, at her word, even if she didn’t really do it. I’m a man, but more importantly, I don’t think you understand how things work here. Cites are expected and do not have to be earned, and a lot of people asked you to support that claim- not just me. It is not worth my time to annoy people with pointless questions about gay activists, and it doesn’t get at the truth of the matter. Aat this point I’m forced to conclude you are deliberately wasting everybody’s time. If you knew of examples of this kind of thing, you easily could have posted them. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/616 "2011-07-04T07:54:26Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > That’s your reply to \*that \*post? Seriously? You don’t have any integrity, do you? Now you’re implying also negative implications about my motivations. Integrity deals with honesty, are you claiming me a liar? Its gone from overwhelming misquotes and confusion to character assasination. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381/617 "2011-07-04T07:55:37Z")
I think we’re done here. The debate was weak enough; the squabbling is not worth the bandwidth. I’m locking this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mom-divorced-3-times-thinks-gay-marriage-will-ruin-marriage/587381.md?page=30)