# My Mother is Trying to Declare Me Dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 5, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310 "2003-03-05T19:23:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/81 "2003-03-07T21:14:14Z")
Or at least “Jinkies!” ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/82 "2003-03-07T21:25:51Z")
"I want you all to get up, get out of your chairs, go to the window, lean out, and yell ‘I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore!’ " Howard Beal, in _Network_ **Stephi** , I really do hope things get better for you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/83 "2003-03-08T23:35:28Z")
Sauron > [@](#): > > They’ll never be able to get a permanent life insurance policy on themselves as cheaply as I did when they were infants. Is that including the appreciation of the premiums (if instead of paying for life insurance, you could invest the money)? ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/84 "2003-03-09T02:25:50Z")
**The Ryan** my parents did the same think as **Sauron**. I popped out of the womb and they got a whole-life policy or cash-value (I’m not 100% sure, but I do know it _wasn’t_ a term policy). The life insurance policy _was_ an investment. It may not have performed as well as a mutual fund, but it was also a low-risk investment – no worries about what the stock market might be doing. The idea was that: 1. If, Og forbid, I died as a child, funeral expenses would be covered – my parents weren’t well off, my unexpected demise would have been rough on them financially. 2)Otherwise, it was considered “emergency money.” We could cash it in if we ever really had to – though it would have paid out much better if I’d “dropped off the perch.” With this in mind, my parents were able to use it as collateral in order to get a loan to help pay my university tuition. When I was in my mid-20s, I cashed it in for a more profitable investment. Got a new policy, and as **Sauron** pointed out, holy poo! the premiums are waaaaay higher now that I’m an adult. (But this policy is going to be kept until I kick the bucket.) **RTFirefly** I agree that morally, it sucks to be New Elvis. I totally agree with you. It would piss me off mightily if someone took out a policy on me who wasn’t a direct dependent. But the legal reality is that you frequently need to take out that kind of insurance. The death of a key person in a business can be utterly devastating. Example: River Phoenix ODed halfway through a film shoot and the film had to be scrapped at huge fincial losses to the production company. But as was noted above – as an adult, it’s not something they can do without your knowledge. So Phoenix did fill out all the relevent paperwork. Side note: As for River Phoenix’s death and that insurance – I don’t know how that turned out. The insurance company refused to pay out because as part of the deal (assessing the risk factor) he signed a document that said he was not a drug user. Since, he “lied”, the insurers wanted to say the policy was void, and then someone sued the Phoenix estate, and it just got messier from there. No idea how that worked out in the courts because it wasn’t reported. ---
**Author:** ![zoogirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9bd4f/32.png) [@zoogirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoogirl)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/85 "2003-03-09T03:19:21Z")
Stephi, hugs. I had a rather horrible thought. Do you have any siblings and if so, how do they stand with dear old Mom? I’d hate to think they might try this again a few years down the road. On the plus side, maybe a stretch in jail will get them clean and sober. Hey, could happen, right? In an indirect, very warped sort of way, it might save their lives. I know that’s not exactly what you want right now, but twenty years from now things could look a lot different. In the meantime, I’ll just sit here and shake my head over how abysmally screwed up some people can get. PS, My parents were alky’s too. Hang in there, do counselling, and let your friends love you all they can. It DOES eventually get better. ---
**Author:** ![Stephi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Stephi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/86 "2003-03-09T04:11:25Z")
I have one brother, and he isn’t on good terms with them either. He got married last summer, and neither of them attended the wedding. Well, neither did I, but I live in Canada. I sent them a nice gift. 🙂 If you meam, would my brother try this? No. I don’t think so. If you mean, would she try this with my brother? I dunno. Anyways, I decided long ago that I’d have nothing to do with them. Oh, and if you want to know what my mother is like, google for Dr Laura. She looks and sounds almost exactly like my mother. It’s incredibly scary. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/87 "2003-03-09T07:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eats\_Crayons \* > The life insurance policy _was_ an investment. It may not have performed as well as a mutual fund, but it was also a low-risk investment – no worries about what the stock market might be doing. I just don’t see how it would make sense as an investent. If an investment that provides death benefits does well, isn’t it pretty much guaranteed that an investment that is exactly the same, except without the death benefits, would do better? And isn’t “you must contribute to this investment every month, or you lose all (or most) of your money” rather restrictive? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/88 "2003-03-09T19:01:17Z")
Where I live (ymmv), for intergenerational transfers, insurance can offer significant captial gains avoidance advantages. It’s just a matter of working out the math, including the tax implications, and seeing under what circumstances the insurance investment beats the bank or market investment. Consequently, where I am, insurance is often part of a well rounded porfolio. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/89 "2003-03-10T14:18:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\*I just don’t see how it would make sense as an investent. If an investment that provides death benefits does well, isn’t it pretty much guaranteed that an investment that is exactly the same, except without the death benefits, would do better? And isn’t “you must contribute to this investment every month, or you lose all (or most) of your money” rather restrictive? \*\* Well, as I said earlier, I didn’t do this strictly as an investment. I agree that investing money directly tends to provide a better return over the long haul. However, I firmly believe that everyone needs life insurance (if for no other reason than to cover the final expenses when they die, thus making things easier on the survivors). If I can give them permanent life insurance when they’re 21, I feel that I’ve done something good for the kids. One other note: The policies I purchased include a provision for the dividends to pay the premiums, assuming the policy’s underlying investments do well. Given the historical returns for such policies with this company, I fully expect the kids to be able to keep these policies the rest of their lives without ever having to pay one cent for them. Assuming, of course, that’s what they want to do. **Muffin** is exactly right – insurance proceeds in the U.S. do not go through probate, and aren’t subject to capital gains tax (in fact, they’re not taxable at all on the federal level). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/90 "2003-03-10T17:02:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eats\_Crayons \* > **RTFirefly** I agree that morally, it sucks to be New Elvis. I totally agree with you. It would piss me off mightily if someone took out a policy on me who wasn’t a direct dependent. > > But the legal reality is that you frequently need to take out that kind of insurance. The death of a key person in a business can be utterly devastating. Example: River Phoenix ODed halfway through a film shoot and the film had to be scrapped at huge fincial losses to the production company. > > But as was noted above – as an adult, it’s not something they can do without your knowledge. So Phoenix did fill out all the relevent paperwork. Well, **Sauron** said “I’m pretty sure companies require the insured to sign a form indicated they know they’re being insured, assuming the insured is of legal age.” We know from the other thread that not all companies follow this policy. I agree that businesses of various sorts have a frequent need to take out policies on key employees. I can’t see where asking consent in those cases would present a problem; key people generally _know_ how important they are to a business. And if someone’s brought on board in a key capacity, whether it’s a new CEO hired from outside, or a prinicipal actor in a film, then consenting to such a policy can be made a condition of employment. But if I wasn’t especially key, and my employer wanted to take out such a policy on me, I’d begin asking questions. In response to **carrot** ’s question (‘At most 18-21 years?’), **Sauron** said: > [@](#): > > If a company was required to get a sign-off from any minor who was insured on a policy once the minor was of legal age, the company would have to research every policy they ever issued to determine a) if the insured was a minor when the policy was issued and b) if said minor was now of legal age, in which case they’d have to send a letter or signature form or something. Insurance companies might want to consider storing info in electronic databases. You search insured’s DOB field for birth dates that are now 18 or more years ago, but weren’t the last time you checked. You send a consent form to whoever’s paying the premiums, for the insured to sign and provide an address. If it comes back with the appropriate blanks filled out, you send a letter to the insured telling them who to contact if they ever want to cease being the insured under the policy. If it doesn’t, and it’s a term policy, payer is notified of the termination of the policy. If it doesn’t, and it’s whole life, same thing, only payer is sent a check as well. The value of the check is the same value that payer’s estate would receive if payer had died. Nothing tricky here at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310/91 "2003-03-10T17:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > Insurance companies might want to consider storing info in electronic databases. You search insured’s DOB field for birth dates that are now 18 or more years ago, but weren’t the last time you checked. You send a consent form to whoever’s paying the premiums, for the insured to sign and provide an address. > > If it comes back with the appropriate blanks filled out, you send a letter to the insured telling them who to contact if they ever want to cease being the insured under the policy. > > If it doesn’t, and it’s a term policy, payer is notified of the termination of the policy. > > If it doesn’t, and it’s whole life, same thing, only payer is sent a check as well. The value of the check is the same value that payer’s estate would receive if payer had died. > > Nothing tricky here at all. You’re right, assuming 1) there’s a requirement to notify minors that they’ve been insured once they reach legal age and 2) an insurance company has done the necessary technological upgrades to their file storage systems. I _can_ tell you that in 1996, one of the largest life-insurance companies in the world was still using a paper filing system for a good portion of its policies. They had data-entry techs working round-the-clock to try to computerize all the info, but the “old guard” in the company still viewed the paper documents as the main filing system. I don’t know that there’s a requirement in effect to notify minors they’ve been insured once they reach legal age. If there’s another Doper who’s currently employed in the insurance field, maybe they could step in and enlighten me. But I keep going back to the insurance policy as a contract (which is really is). The contract is between the owner (usually, the person who pays the premiums) and the insurance company. The object of the policy, the insured, has no say-so whatsoever in the contract. Or at least, they didn’t as of seven years ago, when I was trying to sell the stuff. I suppose it could have changed since then. Incidentally, the two options you outline to cancel a policy are extremely susceptible to insurance fraud – both on the part of the company and the part of the policy owner. I trust you can see that. The current system is set up to avoid just such scenarios you posit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mother-is-trying-to-declare-me-dead/159310.md?page=4)