# My mother's mother's mother was Jewish. Am I? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 13, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299 "2011-06-13T06:58:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/21 "2011-06-17T02:25:07Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Under Jewish religion and cultural practice, if a person’s mother is Jewish, the person is Jewish. In the OP’s case, recurse 3 times. And what is the base case for this recursion? Who was the first Jewish woman? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/22 "2011-06-17T02:28:51Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Minor update… I’ve gotten in touch with some relatives overseas who are related to my mother’s father; they are closer to the source, and can get their hands on Official Documents more easily. And I’m seeing my aunt again on Sunday. We’ll get more details soon, and I hope I’ll be able to establish who our Jewish relative was. I’ve known that we had one since I was a kid, but knew nothing more than that. > > In other news, I signed up for a trial of Ancestry.ca, the genealogical website that offers searches of Official Records from many locations. Using it, I found the landing records for when my grandparents landed in Canada! > > And my aunt says that my mother’s parents had quite a life before they arrived in Canada. Apparently Grandma was married twice, and Grandpa had to wait seven years for the first guy to be declared dead before he could marry her…? :eek: My working hypothesis is that the first husband got killed in the war, but maybe he just ran off… Ooh, keep us updated! Where in Canada? > [@Uncertain](#): > > And what is the base case for this recursion? Who was the first Jewish woman? Sarah. ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/23 "2011-06-17T02:35:28Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Sarah. Was she? On what grounds? And her son Isaac married Rebecca, who was not a descendant of Sarah, so were his children Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/24 "2011-06-17T03:26:07Z")
I found my grandmother’s family on Ancestry.ca! There’s the list of siblings with the names that my aunt gave me last week… plus one more… the mother’s name doesn’t seem Jewish, though, so this may have been a false alarm. More research, more research… ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/25 "2011-06-17T03:41:39Z")
Incidentally, we seem to have a Cecil in the family. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/26 "2011-06-17T12:17:28Z")
Let me try to reframe slightly. If you’re mother’s mother was (verifiably) Jewish, and you walked into an Orthodox or Conservative synagogue and said, “I’d like to convert to become Jewish,” they would tell you that you need not undergo formal conversion. You were born of a Jewish mother/grandmother, and so can be recognized as Jewish if you so desire. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/27 "2011-06-17T13:42:08Z")
> [@Uncertain](#): > > And what is the base case for this recursion? Who was the first Jewish woman? All of the women who were present at Mount Sinai when God gave the Torah to Moses and the people. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/28 "2011-06-17T14:00:53Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > All of the women who were present at Mount Sinai when God gave the Torah to Moses and the people. Based on the Bible, it’s Sarah. Sarah was Abraham’s wife, and Abraham is considered the first Jew, who formed the covenant with God. Remember, the women at Mt. Sinai were already Jews, that’s why they were there. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/29 "2011-06-17T14:45:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Based on the Bible, it’s Sarah. Sarah was Abraham’s wife, and Abraham is considered the first Jew, who formed the covenant with God. Remember, the women at Mt. Sinai were already Jews, that’s why they were there. Esau is also descended from Sarah, and the Bible clearly doesn’t consider him part of the “Jewish” people. In this case, Jewish (Yehudi) is a misnomer, because it refers to children of Judah and doesn’t appear in the Bible until after the Exile (in Esther, for example) which is a thousand years after the patriarchs. The Bible uses the term “children of Israel”, ie. Jacob. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/30 "2011-06-17T15:04:07Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > All of the women who were present at Mount Sinai when God gave the Torah to Moses and the people. This is wrong. There were 13 tribes of Israel present at Mount Sinai (by the Bible, blah blah). Only one of those tribes were Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/31 "2011-06-17T15:35:26Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > This is wrong. There were 13 tribes of Israel present at Mount Sinai (by the Bible, blah blah). Only one of those tribes were Jews. See my post above. Keeve is presumably using “Jews” as the equivalent of “Israelites”, which is fairly common although not technically accurate. Plenty of Jews today do not trace their descent to the tribe of Judah either. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/32 "2011-06-17T16:42:41Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > See my post above. Keeve is presumably using “Jews” as the equivalent of “Israelites”, which is fairly common although not technically accurate. Words change meanings over time. Very few people nowadays use “Jew” to refer only to the descendants of Judah. My opinion is that the meaning of the word “Jew” has changed, and nowadays one who uses “Jew” to refer to any Israelite IS being “technically accurate”. Wiktionary would seem to agree, being that the entry for [Jew](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jew) doesn’t even mention Judah. And **Reno Nevada** is entitled to his/her opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/33 "2011-06-17T16:45:48Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Words change meanings over time. Very few people nowadays use “Jew” to refer only to the descendants of Judah. > > My opinion is that the meaning of the word “Jew” has changed, and nowadays one who uses “Jew” to refer to any Israelite IS being “technically accurate”. Wiktionary would seem to agree, being that the entry for [Jew](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jew) doesn’t even mention Judah. And **Reno Nevada** is entitled to his/her opinion. That’s certainly true if use it to refer to any Israelite nowadays. It just appears awkward when used in a discussion of Biblical events. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/34 "2011-06-17T22:41:24Z")
Well, I found a possible name for my great-grandmother, and it’s as English as the day is long. This may have been a false alarm, but I was hoping to be able to call my sister and say, after some chitchat, “Oh, by the way, guess what?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/35 "2011-06-19T19:02:06Z")
I’m visiting my aunt, and she tells me that it was my mother’s _father_’s mother who was Jewish. So I guess I can’t claim Jewish status simply by descent. 🙂 However, this does cast an interesting light on my grandfather… More research… ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/36 "2011-06-19T20:43:49Z")
I thought I replied to this last night, but I guess not. My grandmother on my father’s side was a Jewess, but for some reason I’m not sure of, my Acadian grandfather kind of took over the Kultur aspect. History is dark for that side of the family, but I’m pretty sure I can’t claim I’m Jewish, by regular Jew rules, nor even by cultural traditions. I was closer to the Jews when I was married to one and spent a bunch of time with her family. I learned more Yiddish by talking to Simon and Linda (they can’t speak Yiddish, but they understand it and know and knew, irrespectively, all the famous words) than my entire time with my grandmother (who died when I was young, crosses self, where’s my St. Christopher medallion, wait, I need a different one for that). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/37 "2011-06-20T03:31:57Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Esau is also descended from Sarah, and the Bible clearly doesn’t consider him part of the “Jewish” people. In this case, Jewish (Yehudi) is a misnomer, because it refers to children of Judah and doesn’t appear in the Bible until after the Exile (in Esther, for example) which is a thousand years after the patriarchs. The Bible uses the term “children of Israel”, ie. Jacob. I don’t think there’s a factual response to this. But the biblical explanation has all the women at Mt. Sinai already as members of God’s chosen. That’s why they were there. Sarah would be one accepted answer to the question. I don’t think the Mt. Sinai answer would be generally accepted, but IANA biblical scholar. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/38 "2011-06-20T05:39:23Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Esau is also descended from Sarah, and the Bible clearly doesn’t consider him part of the “Jewish” people. In this case, Jewish (Yehudi) is a misnomer, because it refers to children of Judah and doesn’t appear in the Bible until after the Exile (in Esther, for example) which is a thousand years after the patriarchs. The Bible uses the term “children of Israel”, ie. Jacob. _Yehudi_ is because of the land of Judah. Israel and Judah were two nations, yayayayaya, and the Kingdom of Judea outlasted Israel by a few generations. That’s where ‘Jew’ comes from, but ‘Hebrew’ or ‘Israelite’ was often used and was still used interchangeably up until WWII. Esau was an apostate, one who married outside of the religion and did not choose to serve God. And he was pre-Torah. That’s the reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![633squadron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/ee59a6/32.png) [@633squadron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/633squadron)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/39 "2011-06-20T14:26:21Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Genealogical research is leading to the possibility that my great-grandmother, my mother’s mother’s mother, was Jewish. If true, does that mean that I and my siblings are Jewish? Even if none of the intervening generations acknowledged it or actively participated in the religion? “Depends on who you ask”. There’s no central authority in the world for the Jewish religion. Each of the major movements (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstructionist) has at least a US central organization, if not an international one, but even within these organizations there’s some debate. In very general terms, being “Jewish” is a matter of heredity more than practice. If you weren’t “born Jewish” you can become Jewish according to the standards of one of the movements. It’s not common, and until recently most movements were very reluctant to do it, not because they were suspicious, but because they feared the backlash. Israel has the “law of return”, which grants immediate entry and protection to anyone who is “Jewish”, and that has different requirements as well. The Nazis would have claimed that you were. _My_ belief is that if you say you’re Jewish, you’re Jewish. Anyone who’s insane enough to throw his or her lot in with the Jews is just crazy enough to be Jewish. Guilt helps, too.😃 ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299/40 "2011-06-20T14:29:26Z")
My basic understanding of the whole thing is that, according to Orthodox Judaism, you are Jewish if one of the following is true: 1. Your mother is Jewish. 2. You convert to Judaism according to the accepted process. I don’t know what happens if your mother converts after your are born. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-mothers-mothers-mother-was-jewish-am-i/585299.md?page=3)