# My My cat just killed a woodpecker -- immoral? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425 "2002-10-29T18:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![panache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c77e96/32.png) [@panache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/61 "2002-10-31T20:32:02Z")
Props to **Ace** and **VarlosZ** on well-adjusted cat ownership. My problem is not as much about whether killing the woodpecker is wrong, but whether the cat dines on the woodpecker, post-hunt. I understand the emotional distress, I anthropomorphically sympathize with a limp woodpecker far more than a cricket carried around in my cat’s teeth- and I don’t even resent the cat for not having cricket on toast points later (blech, who wants to eat a cricket anyway.) The issue is whether the woodpecker has more value than the cricket and, if true, whether that warrants action on **Ace’s** part. If you think that Merengue is going to dramatically improve his serial woodpeckering, you may want to train him out of it for your own mental well-being. However, unless there are an overwhelming number of woodpeckers felled at the hands of your remorseless cat, this is just another part of natural selection. I feel like your cat is not at such a ridiculous advantage that you will have to level the playing field ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/62 "2002-10-31T20:49:03Z")
**Panache** , correct, correct and more correct. Where have you been all my thread? I did feed him some woodpecker last night, since he saw fit to bring it back inside. It didn’t take. The sparrows and robins don’t bother me. A few less slow early birds will only make room for the smarter ones. But the woodpecker was both useful and beautiful. Should I train Merengue to recognize and spare the beautiful birds? Should beauty be a reason to escape the impartial claws of death? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/63 "2002-10-31T21:05:26Z")
Ace: > [@](#): > > The sparrows and robins don’t bother me. A few less slow early birds will only make room for the smarter ones. But the woodpecker was both useful and beautiful. Should I train Merengue to recognize and spare the beautiful birds? Should beauty be a reason to escape the impartial claws of death? The average indoor/outdoor cat kills up to 200 small birds and mammals a year, according to a study cited here: www.bird-dog.news/Article/ACat.html Apparently sparrows have been hit pretty hard. Your cites aren’t anecdotal, they’re amateur opinion. The Messybeast article doesn’t even apply as the argument there is that English villages are a different environment more conducive to indoor/outdoor cat responsible ownership. As for the pretty animals? Of course, only save the pretty animals. Everybody knows that ugly animals and people don’t deserve to live. They don’t have a right to life. ---
**Author:** ![panache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c77e96/32.png) [@panache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/64 "2002-10-31T21:17:37Z")
Aah, Thank You, a nod from the well-spoken to the well-reasoned is always appreciated, however, aged woodpecker? Eeew. I wouldn’t have touched the stuff either- Seriously, your cat could be trained to make judgement calls on the relative value of birds? Smart Cat, but more importantly, where do the parking lot gulls fit in? They are nature’s way of removing leftover twinkies from paved surfaces, but in a Hitchockian way are damn scary. Fair game or no? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/65 "2002-10-31T21:22:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally by Scylla_ > Your cites aren’t anecdotal, they’re amateur opinion. :rolleyes: If you follow the link, cleverly buried in my post under _anecdotal_, you will find the following, which you’ve forced me to post for you since your arguments seem to suffer from lack of basic reading and surfing skills: > [@](#): > > The following comments are extracted from the [About.com](http://About.com) cats’ forum. – Remaining cut because it should have stayed where Ace got it rather than cutting and pasting it over here. – David B After you’re finished with these, you can tell the class how you’ve ascertained the difference between UK backyards and My backyard in Park Slope. Crystal ball, again? **Scylla** , I’m going to have to ask that you step up the quality of your arguments here, if you wish to participate further, as dealing with your debating inadequacies is becoming a complete drag on both my limited time and the utility of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/66 "2002-10-31T21:33:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DrDeth , bolding mine_ > **Outside cats- and especially “feral” cats are a scourge on the environment.** If they only lived on what they killed, their population would soon balance itself with the prey- but since they hunt more for sport- such felines kill more than “circle of life” type predators. Strong words, and with no foundation. Check out [this site](http://www.animal-lib.org.au/lists/feral/fcat.html) > [@](#): > > Studies comparing areas where cats are prolific and where they have been removed, have proved that their presence has a large impact on rabbit populations. The Cat is also a heavy predator of rats and mice, but seldom takes birds. The above quote attests to the value of the feral cat controlling nuisance populations in Australia. > [@](#): > > Very little is known about the effects of removing large numbers of introduced animals. New Zealand tried it with feral cats and as a consequence suffered a fourfold increase in Rats. Rats are significant predators of birds and nests. That would suggest that the predation of rats by outside cats actually protects the song bird population. > [@](#): > > Throughout the classical world, the Cat was revered. However once the mediaeval church began its campaign against paganism, all that was changed. The Cat was associated with heathen Gods. The Cat must die. In 1250 the Inquisition launched a crackdown. Cats were persecuted, drawn and quartered and burned at the stake as witches in disguise. That was bad for the cat, but bad for the persecutors as well. > > At that very time, a plague of rats bearing Bubonic Fleas spread across Europe. They carried the Black Death. Because numbers of cats were so diminished, there was nothing to stop the rats. By mid-14th Century, half the population of Europe had perished. Interference with an established balance of nature, is dangerous. Lets not cause “our morals” to once again threaten our own lives by applying unnatural controls on a very important species. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/67 "2002-10-31T21:35:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace0Spades \* > \*\*That’s fine with me. I regard anecdotal evidence as vastly superior to factually unsupported advocacy groups. \*\* Anecdotal evidence is worthless. Of course many outdoor cats live a long time. There are millions of them; nobody is claiming they ALL die young. Would you like to hear my anecdotal evidence of my family’s cats? Smokey - Outdoor, dead at 7 Missy - Outdoor, dead at 7 Bella - Outdoor, dead at 2 Nermal - Outdoor, dead at 2 Casey - Outdoor, dead at 12 Attilla- Indoor, dead at 15 Plus current indoor cats Theodore (7) Cherokee (5) and Happy Cat (4) are still going strong. So so far, the indoors have the inside track on beating the outdoors by 2 to 1, easily. There’s some anecdotal evidence. Does it strike you as being better than some legitimately researched numbers? The problem with anecdotal evidence is that there’s too much of it to digest. I’ll take the experts’ opinions that indoor cats live longer. I see no reason why the Humane Society would lie about this. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/68 "2002-10-31T21:57:02Z")
The fact that you found some people who wrote in to Cat sites to talk about Poofy’s cat hammock, and that some of them share your idiotic opinions, doesn’t prove anything. I’ll clue you in on something else **anecdotal** = bad. The fact that your cite consists of a collection of anecdotal unfounded opinion means that it is absolutely useless for any other purpose than surveying what people’s personal opinions are. It is not surprising that you were able to look around on the internet and find some people that share your ill-founded and ignorant opinion. I can find some people that believe the earth is flat on the internet. That doesn’t make it true. Your cite does show one interesting thing, though. Idiocy is dangerous. It is specifically because a large group of idiots in Australia believe that indoor/outdoor cats is ok, that Australia has been forced to seriously consider eradicating all cats from the entire continent! Opinion is not evidence unless it is a professional opinion founded on evidence. If you wish to dismiss the studies and opinions of **every single** credible authority from the Humane Society, to Veterinary Organizations, to Independant Wildlife Researchers, to Cat Advocate groups, and rely instead upon the conflicting anecdotal opinionations of [messybeasts.com](http://messybeasts.com), well then, be my guest. > [@](#): > > After you’re finished with these, you can tell the class how you’ve ascertained the difference between UK backyards and My backyard in Park Slope. Crystal ball, again? Well sure, Watson! My first clue was that Park Slope is on a different Continent than the UK. My Second clue came from your own fucking messybeasts cite, which talked about the fact that the disparity of opinion between Americans and English probably had to do with the highly disparate environments, and then proceeded to go into detail about what those were. My third clue came from your Op where you talked about your cats’ environment, and location from which I concluded it wasn’t an English village. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/69 "2002-10-31T23:40:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\* > > Strong words, and with no foundation. > > Check out [this site](http://www.animal-lib.org.au/lists/feral/fcat.html) > > The above quote attests to the value of the feral cat controlling nuisance populations in Australia. > > That would suggest that the predation of rats by outside cats actually protects the song bird population. > > Lets not cause “our morals” to once again threaten our own lives by applying unnatural controls on a very important species. \*\* Umm, sure- feral & “farm” cats do ALSO eat plenty of “nuisance” rodents. Never said they didn’t. In fact- in my post I had no objections to a “farm cat” being kept outdoors for rodent control. And in fact- some feral cats do live only on what they kill- thus they become a part of the “circle of life”. Still bad in areas where the local bird & native small rodent population hasn’t ever adapted to small feline-type predators… (in many areas there are/were native small predators, which the feral cats simply replace) Ever taken “Population Biology” or an Ecology class? Ever seen the classic “predator/prey cycle” population graphs? Prey populations increase- thus predators increase because of more food- which drives the prey population down, thus the predator population declines with it. In a simple system (artic fox & rabbit) the undulating lines of the graph are lovely to behold. BUT- your household moggie isn’t part of that. If they eat a lot of the prey- their population will NOT decrease to match it. They get their main food from your pantry, and not the wild. Thus- their population remains constantly high- no matter what the prey population is- thereby this constant high pressure from the predator population can do horrible unbalancing things to the environment & the prey popluations- and other dependant species- not to mention other “natural” predators. There is a HUGE difference between true feral cats, which are a part of the “circle of life”, and whose populations are regulated by the natural cycles- and the “outside cat”. Of course- if Mankind would stop killing off the natural predators & introducing new pest rodents- then there would be no need to introduce outside predators, either. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/70 "2002-11-01T09:15:14Z")
A cat’s morality concerning catting about, woodies, peckers etc.? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/71 "2002-11-01T14:25:48Z")
**Scylla** : You stated I did not have anecdotal evidence. If you’ve forgotten, it was right here: > [@](#): > > Your cites aren’t anecdotal, they’re amateur opinion This was obviously wrong. It happens; but be an adult, and admit it; I hope humility isn’t so anathema to you as it appears. It’s GD: You can’t simply abandon your previously sired arguments like an unneutered cat; either admit your mistakes or defend them – don’t waste everyones’ time making _yet another_ new argument ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/72 "2002-11-01T14:36:20Z")
Ace: I stand corrected. I did say they weren’t anecdotal. This is what is known as a “typo.” What I meant to say was that they were worthless as they were both anecdotal and amateur. My apologies for the mistake. Of course anecdotal is not a quality one strives for when trying to produce a credible argument, so this is something of a pyhhric victory for you. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/73 "2002-11-01T14:39:51Z")
Ace: I stand corrected. I did say they “weren’t anecdotal.” This was a typo. What I meant to say was that your cites weren’t credible, as they were anecdotal and amateur. My apologies for the mistake. This is however a Pyrrhic victory for you at best. Anecdotal is not a good thing if you are trying to present a credible, fact-based arguement. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/74 "2002-11-01T15:44:28Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s fine with me. I regard anecdotal evidence as vastly superior to factually unsupported advocacy groups. I’ll bring your attention to the fact that the American Veterinary Medical Association is hardly an advocacy group – and that HSUS are advocating for the welfare of your cat, so it’s not like they have an ulterior motive here. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/75 "2002-11-01T16:24:59Z")
Am I the only one that is completely staggered that this thread is still going on? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/76 "2002-11-01T17:04:34Z")
**Daniel** : I agree, the AVMA is not an advocacy group, and that they don’t have any obvious ulterior motive, although that feature is written to suggest that it is the personal recommendation and thoughts of **Gail Golab, DvM** , rather than the a full study and position paper by the aforementioned AJVR, which by the by, is the scientific journal released by the AVMA. Those be the guys I e-mailed – so we’re in complete agreement here, they’d make a great cite. Also, your cite merely says that cats live longer indoors, an opinion I (still) agree with – I’m not sure why we keep coming back to this. We were talking about the quantity vs. quality of feline longevity with regards to the tradeoff. FWIW, I went through that whole site with no luck, hence the e-mail’d request… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/77 "2002-11-01T17:24:53Z")
**Scylla** : It is not a typo. You could not have meant to say “your arguments aren’t anecdotal, they’re amateur opinion,” when you missed something on the keyboard and said "your arguments aren’t both anecdotal, and they’re amateur opinion. Therefore this is a rather huge lie, distorion, what have you; and, compounded with your execrable laziness in not looking at all at my cites, is condemnatory indication of bad-faith argument. As this seems to be a pattern with you, I will no longer bother to respond to your GD posts, as they take away time and energy and offer little to nothing of sustenance to actual debate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/78 "2002-11-01T17:33:36Z")
**Panache** : Forgive me, I had to deal with some unpleasantness; I was rather ignoring the wheat for the chaff – a failing of mine, I admit! Yes, I believe, though am by no means sure, that I could train my little tiger to spare the woodpecker. However, the seagull, or it’s companion flying rat, the pigeon, would be worth double Friskies points. Mmm, pigeon! He snagged another sparrow last night, but he still wouldn’t eat it; I don’t think that’s going to be a moral avenue, since I’m unwilling to let him starve if he is (or becomes) an inefficient bird eater. I think **DrDeth** has a point on this; It’s not exactly a circle of life, without prey-dependency, is it? **Rickjay** : I do appreciate your anecdotal statistics; Hey, if I collect and verify enough of them, I could do my own study! Lurkers: Have indoor, outdoor cats? Send me an e-mail with their age, whether they had shots/no shots, spayed/not spayed, and (if outdoor) In what way they were raised to be outdoor cats. -Ace ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/79 "2002-11-01T18:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace0Spades \* > \*\ ***Scylla** : It is not a typo. You could not have meant to say “your arguments aren’t anecdotal, they’re amateur opinion,” when you missed something on the keyboard and said "your arguments aren’t both anecdotal, and they’re amateur opinion. > > Therefore this is a rather huge lie, distorion, what have you; \*\* I’m going to give you the opportunity to reconsider this post. ---
**Author:** ![Rockford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@Rockford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rockford)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425/80 "2002-11-02T05:22:46Z")
Here’s the appropriate pit thread for those of you who wish to hurl your invective at Ace0Spades. I suggest you use it. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=142287](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=142287) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-my-cat-just-killed-a-woodpecker-immoral/134425.md?page=5)