# My new cousin can't get back from Canada **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997 "2003-01-21T16:41:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/21 "2003-01-21T18:33:11Z")
That delay has nothing to do with post -9/11 security. The INS is massively underfunded, with outdated technology. 6 months at the earliest was what we told people applying for visas and such when I was an assistant caseworker in Congress. And that was hopelessly optimistic, we never really expected anything sooner than a year and a half. You want to speed up visa processing? You want the INS to do a better job keeping track of immigrants? Then fucking fund them. Don’t bitch about how they aren’t doing their jobs and they’re inefficient when they don’t have the staffing or the funds to keep track of everything. There are [36,412](http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/budgetsummary/btd/1975_2002/btd01ins.htm) positions in the INS. There are about [33 million](http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/prime/1126-101.html) immigrants in the US. So that’s about 900 immigrants per employee of the INS. And this isn’t even taking into account that many INS positions have nothing to do with processing and keeping track of immigrants - you have Border Patrol, administrative, etc. And people wonder why things are so slow. Pathetic. You want something done right, you have to spend money on it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/22 "2003-01-21T18:52:01Z")
It is legal to leave the country, and possible to re-enter, while in the process of waiting for an adjustment of status. You must apply for an [advance parole](http://www.ins.gov/graphics/services/emergency/index.htm#Advanced) ahead of time. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/23 "2003-01-21T19:09:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*That delay has nothing to do with post -9/11 security… 6 months at the earliest was what we told people applying for visas and such when I was an assistant caseworker in Congress. And that was hopelessly optimistic, we never really expected anything sooner than a year and a half. \*\* I was glad that full civil service rules do not apply to the Dept. of Homeland Security, because that permits more management flexibility. I assume that Tom Ridge must have the resources to overcome this backlog _somewhere_ in his huge department. I sure hope he focuses on this backlog and does something to fix it. **Bricker** , my cousin mentioned that her husband had to return home to Canada personally to pick up certain paperwork that his family refused to send him. Without that paperwork, he might not have been able to get the Advance Parole. Or, he may have gone back home without realizing in advance what a fix he’d be in. ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/24 "2003-01-21T19:24:19Z")
Your cousin’s husband’s visa quest will be a tough one. He will need to apply for a spousal visa to become a legal permanent resident of the United States. He won’t be able to stay as a visitor from Canada. So, his idea of going after a visa - i.e. a spousal visa - is the right one. Currently, all the US processing centers are delayed by about 9-12 months on spousal visas. Her husband could be SOL, stuck in Canada, while the visa application is pending. Tell him to sit tight… and get an immigration lawyer on the case, if need be. Unfortunately, very little can speed up the process. Good luck to him… and to all of the family. Elly ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/25 "2003-01-21T20:13:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > Poetry? The appearance is that you find satisfaction in the suffering of December’s family because it will serve to teach him a lesson that you believe is valuable. That reeks. You miunderstand me. I find no satisfaction in the situation described in the OP. The identification of such a stunning example of hypocricy amuses me to no end, however. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/26 "2003-01-21T20:25:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Poetry? The appearance is that you find satisfaction in the suffering of December’s family because it will serve to teach him a lesson that you believe is valuable. That reeks. \*\* And, **Lib** , if i could just add one more thing: I don’t believe that this set of circumstances will “teach him a lesson” at all (your words, not mine). If i did, i probably wouldn’t have been so quick to point out his hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/27 "2003-01-21T20:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*You miunderstand me. I find no satisfaction in the situation described in the OP. The identification of such a stunning example of hypocricy amuses me to no end, however. \*\* Okay, but it still seems very unfair. For example, Mhendo called out December for his views on racial profiling, but if you visit the link, you’ll see that he was not advocating racial profiling at all. He was calling out perceived double-standards of people like Hillary Clinton. In fact December himself even said in the thread: “I think the screening should include behavior AND ethnicity AND responses to appropriately designed questions, AND anything else that might help.” His intention, even if misguided, is clearly not to isolate by race but by a general profile. He isn’t advocating detaining anyone just because they look Arab or Pakistani. If you pin someone against the wall, even when they’ve possibly lived up to your caricature of them, you should give them breathing room so they can grow. Growth and hypocrisy are not the same. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/28 "2003-01-21T20:32:17Z")
december, this is the medicine you have been prescribing as good for everybody else. I do not understand why you do not consider it good for your own family. Can you please explain that? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/29 "2003-01-21T20:41:17Z")
Incredible. What is there, like an autopilot or something? Read a December post and your knee slams into your chin? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/30 "2003-01-21T20:47:17Z")
Remember when he was defending [armed vigilantes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=149084) patrolling the border, **Lib**? How many across-the-board condemnations of Arabs and Muslims has he launched? How many times has his knee jerked in favor of whatever the government does in the Neverending War on Terror? Feh. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/31 "2003-01-21T20:47:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **I was glad that full civil service rules do not apply to the Dept. of Homeland Security, because that permits more management flexibility. I assume that Tom Ridge must have the resources to overcome this backlog _somewhere_ in his huge department. I sure hope he focuses on this backlog and does something to fix it.** More management flexibility shmore shmanagement flexibility. This has nothing to do with unions, it has to do with Congress not funding the INS. Unless Tom Ridge has the authority to triple the personnel positions in the caseworker section of the INS and to increase their funding so they get better technology, his fancy new union-breaking powers won’t do jack shit. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/32 "2003-01-21T21:02:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **For example, Mhendo called out December for his views on racial profiling, but if you visit the link, you’ll see that he was not advocating racial profiling at all. He was calling out perceived double-standards of people like Hillary Clinton. In fact December himself even said in the thread: “I think the screening should include behavior AND ethnicity AND responses to appropriately designed questions, AND anything else that might help.” His intention, even if misguided, is clearly not to isolate by race but by a general profile. He isn’t advocating detaining anyone just because they look Arab or Pakistani.** Well, i agree that it was not open advocacy, but simply stating that “relevant characteristics should go beyond ethnicity” is not a very strong repudiation of racial profiling, in my opinion. He also spent much of that thread asserting that, in their attempts to be PC, airport security were specifically avoiding people of Middle Eastern appearance. This included the beautifully worded: > [@](#): > > Also, **I have seen it claimed** that when random airline passengers are selected for individula inspection, some security personnel bend over backwards to avoid Arab men, lest they be accused of racial profiling. Emphasis mine - “I have seen it claimed…”!!! WTF? Way to go with the hard evidence there. IANAL, but isn’t that hearsay twice removed, or something? Not only that, but about 90% of his OP in that thread consisted of a quote from Ann Coulter. Not exactly the way to make an original argument. > [@](#): > > \*\*If you pin someone against the wall, even when they’ve possibly lived up to your caricature of them, you should give them breathing room so they can grow. Growth and hypocrisy are not the same. \*\* What exactly does this mean? If and when **december** shows any inclination that he has modified his position on these issues as a result of the treatment meted out to his relative, i’ll be the first to congratulate him. Hey, i’ve been known to admit i was wrong in the light of new evidence or personal experience, and i understand that we ought to allow a little leeway, but i can’t recall **december** expressing too much concern for those who, for example, have been caught in Ashcroft’s incredibly wide “anti-terrorist” dragnet. And, don’t you think that **sailor** ’s question was apposite? Given that **december** has been supporting “homeland security” measures such as these for over a year now, is it not reasonable to ask whether he has in fact changed his mind, or whether he is just hoping for an exemption for his own relatives? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/33 "2003-01-21T21:08:06Z")
Well, I’ll back off now and let December speak for himself. I’ve defended him on several occasions and, despite that he has never thanked or acknowledged it (in fact, I cannot recall ever reading a post addressed to me from December), I’ve always felt like he was being unfairly treated. A lot of it is spin to me. I don’t think he’s always advocated what the liberals think he’s advocating. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/34 "2003-01-21T21:09:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Remember when he was defending [armed vigilantes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=149084) patrolling the border, **Lib**? How many across-the-board condemnations of Arabs and Muslims has he launched? How many times has his knee jerked in favor of whatever the government does in the Neverending War on Terror? Feh. \*\* “Yeah, what **minty green** said,” **mhendo** exclaimed, as his knee jerked again. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/35 "2003-01-21T21:46:21Z")
In fairness to **december** , he’s been pretty consistently against racial profiling as a policy, though he has also stated that there would be beefits associated with such profiling. That opposition to profiling obviously took a back seat to the opportunity to decry perceived Democratic hypocrisy in the profiling thread linked above, however. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/36 "2003-01-21T21:51:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*Read my post. I said:I’ll even extend those sentiments and say that i feel for everyone in **december** ’s family who is affected by this. I was more intrigued at the way in which **december** was so quick to criticize the same sort of policies that he has been supporting for so long just because someone he knows happens to be the victim now. \*\* Well, now, that’s funny; it seems to me that the OP is very clearly complaining about bureaucratic delay and administrative incompetence. Tell me; when did **december** “support” bureaucratic delay and incompetence? A specific cite, please. Unless you can show he “supported” government incompetence, you’ve managed to demonstrate that you’re either illiterate or a total asshole. **minty green** : > [@](#): > > Remember when he was defending armed vigilantes patrolling the border, Lib? Did you not READ the OP? Is English your second language? Tell me, exactly, how “I believe the border should be closely watched/defended” is contradictory with “I believe government services should not be ridiculously inefficient and incompetent.” It seems wholly consistent, to me, to believe both those things. Indeed, it could be argued that one enhances the other; presumably, faster and more effective bureaucracy will make the border more secure. How are these things contradictory or self-critical? According to you, hypocrisy is being displayed, yet you’ve provided no evidence of any hypocrisy. Your cites, so far, are completely irrelevant. Unless, of course, you have evidence december advocates 3-year delays for routine government procedures. I don’t recall him posting a thread titled “The Government Should Take Three Years To Do Paperwork” but maybe I missed it and you have a link to that thread. Please provide the link. You will notice that december did NOT say “I don’t think my cousin should be screened due to his country of birth.” You will notice he did NOT say “There’s too much security at the border” You will kindly notice that he never said “My relatives should not be subject to the same rules as everyone else.” He did not say “My cousin’s ethnicity should not be a factor in his entering the United States.” Those would indeed be hypocritical things for him to say, but he didn’t say them. although you doubtlessly wish he did. As near as I can tell, **december** is saying “My cousin may have to wait three years to re-enter the country. That is unreasonable. He should not have to wait so long for an administrative process.” This strikes me as being a perfectly reasonable complaint. It’s also a non-partisan complaint. It is very obviously not contradictory with “I believe we should have tight security.” In fact, december, very clearly, using common and easy-to-read words, made this perfectly logical distinction at the end of his post. It’s also completely unrelated to any of the stupid bullshit you’ve spewed in this thread. But nooooo, we had to turn it into another partisan knife fight and use a mild personal rant to start some sandbox war over stuff that wasn’t in the OP, because you don’t like him personally. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/37 "2003-01-21T22:01:40Z")
nope. december’s stance has been that the government has the power to decide how to best fight terrorism, and if it decides some people should be locked up in secret or tried in secret without judicial guarantees, then so be it. So the government has decided it needs three years to review this case. that is what the government has decided. Why is it questionable? And why are other government decisions OK when they result in more hardship? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/38 "2003-01-21T22:31:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Well, now, that’s funny; it seems to me that the OP is very clearly complaining about bureaucratic delay and administrative incompetence. Tell me; when did **december** “support” bureaucratic delay and incompetence? A specific cite, please. > > Unless you can show he “supported” government incompetence, you’ve managed to demonstrate that you’re either illiterate or a total asshole. > > **minty green** : > > Did you not READ the OP? Is English your second language? > > Tell me, exactly, how “I believe the border should be closely watched/defended” is contradictory with “I believe government services should not be ridiculously inefficient and incompetent.” It seems wholly consistent, to me, to believe both those things. Indeed, it could be argued that one enhances the other; presumably, faster and more effective bureaucracy will make the border more secure. How are these things contradictory or self-critical? > > According to you, hypocrisy is being displayed, yet you’ve provided no evidence of any hypocrisy. Your cites, so far, are completely irrelevant. Unless, of course, you have evidence december advocates 3-year delays for routine government procedures. I don’t recall him posting a thread titled “The Government Should Take Three Years To Do Paperwork” but maybe I missed it and you have a link to that thread. Please provide the link. > > You will notice that december did NOT say “I don’t think my cousin should be screened due to his country of birth.” You will notice he did NOT say “There’s too much security at the border” You will kindly notice that he never said “My relatives should not be subject to the same rules as everyone else.” He did not say “My cousin’s ethnicity should not be a factor in his entering the United States.” Those would indeed be hypocritical things for him to say, but he didn’t say them. although you doubtlessly wish he did. > > As near as I can tell, **december** is saying “My cousin may have to wait three years to re-enter the country. That is unreasonable. He should not have to wait so long for an administrative process.” This strikes me as being a perfectly reasonable complaint. It’s also a non-partisan complaint. It is very obviously not contradictory with “I believe we should have tight security.” In fact, december, very clearly, using common and easy-to-read words, made this perfectly logical distinction at the end of his post. It’s also completely unrelated to any of the stupid bullshit you’ve spewed in this thread. But nooooo, we had to turn it into another partisan knife fight and use a mild personal rant to start some sandbox war over stuff that wasn’t in the OP, because you don’t like him personally. \*\* Read the last sentence of the OP again. First security is mentioned, and then the delay is opposed. If you really believe that there is no connection between the amount of time the understaffed INS needs to take care of these issues, and the increased levels of INS responsibility since 9/11, then you’re delusional. Granted, the INS was understaffed and underfunded before 9/11, as **Neurotik** pointed out, but now there are even more things for that limited number of INS staff to take care of. And, as someone who has fairly constantly followed the Republican small-government line, why is **december** all upset that this particular government agency can’t handle his relative’s case quickly enough? Surely this is a good sign for **december** , because when a government agency isn’t big enough to do its job, the next step is privatization, right? The point is not that i don’t agree with the OP - i do. The issue is that i and others on this board have been complaining for quite a while that innocent people slip between the cracks, only to be shrugged off by those like **december** who have been pushing the “security above all else” barrow. And, if the information provided by some others on this thread is any indication, it appears that **december** ’s relative may have, inadvertently or otherwise, failed to comply with one or another INS regulation related to his stay in the US. If this is the case (and **december** conceded that he doesn’t know the law related to the issue) then why should this person have any more redress than any other person who breaks the law? Especially when **december** , as i pointed out earlier, was happy enough to support Ashcroft’s over-zealous interpretation of the law in the name of national security. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/39 "2003-01-21T23:06:19Z")
What **sailor** and **mhendo** said, with the additional proviso that **RickJay** can bite me because I can read English very well, thank you very much, and the OP is quite clearly bitching about how his cousin’s husband is an innocent victim of “the need for security in a post-9/11 world.” ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/40 "2003-01-21T23:19:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **On his recent visits to Canada he has had more and more difficulty being re-admitted to the US. Finally, he decided not to try to return until he had a visa. He was advised that the visa was probably necessary, and that trying to return without one could hurt his record. Here’s the kicker: Getting a visa will take between three months and three years!** If he was in the US without a visa then he was in the country illegally. \*\* > [@](#): > > But, this amount of delay is unconscionable. \*\* No, it isn’t unconscionable - in fact if it only takes 3 years he will be very lucky. It took me 11 years to get a green card. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997.md?page=3)