# My new cousin can't get back from Canada **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997 "2003-01-21T16:41:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/121 "2003-01-23T22:08:26Z")
We’ll just have to keep going around in circles won’t we? Well, ok. december has defended the discretion of the government to do what they pretty much please which would include using their resources as they think best to defend the country and its borders and if that results in hardships that is just too bad. So now the government has decided that it has other priorities and that is not ok, If the government decides a guy has to spend three years in jail without being charged that is fine according to december because the country is “at war”. Well, now the government has decided processing his cousin’s visa is not a high priority so just deal with it. And I will say again: december does not even know the circumstances and does not even know if the guy is entitled to a visa in the first place. For all we know the guy might belong in jail. So if anyone is getting worked up over this they are getting all worked up over a non-issue because we do not know the guy is entitled to anything. So you are barking up the wrong tree. How do you know the guy is entitled to a visa? That’s right: you don’t and neither does december. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/122 "2003-01-23T22:10:39Z")
We’ll just have to keep going around in circles won’t we? Well, ok. december has defended the discretion of the government to do what they pretty much please which would include using their resources as they think best to defend the country and its borders and if that results in hardships that is just too bad. So now the government has decided that it has other priorities and that is not ok, If the government decides a guy has to spend three years in jail without being charged that is fine according to december because the country is “at war”. Well, now the government has decided processing his cousin’s visa is not a high priority so just deal with it. And I will say again: december does not even know the circumstances and does not even know if the guy is entitled to a visa in the first place. For all we know the guy might belong in jail. So if anyone is getting worked up over this they are getting all worked up over a non-issue because we do not know the guy is entitled to anything. So you are barking up the wrong tree. How do you know the guy is entitled to a visa? That’s right: you don’t and neither does december. I have a very clear history in this regard: read my posts and you will see I _do_ believe in civil rights and in human rights and in due process. december most clearly does not. He has chosen to delegate all these things to the discretion of the government. Well, now he can deal with the consequences of his own ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/123 "2003-01-23T22:51:01Z")
Geez, guys, this is NOT primarily a civil liberties issue. **december’s** cousin does not have the right to do whatever he wants, eitehr because he is Canadian, or because he is married to a U.S. citizen. It may very well be a bureaucratic incompetence issue, or an INS under-resourcing issue, or an issue of the person in question either not understanding legal requirements, having been misinformed about legal requirements, or choosing to risk ignoring them. All in all, several aspects of this situation are extremely stupid and/or unfortunate. However, I don’t see how this is a civil liberties issue. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/124 "2003-01-23T23:55:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > This is, indeed, an extremely sad situation. But it’s also an object lesson for everyone. With apologies to Martin Niemoeller Now that you have apologized to Martin Niemoeller, you ought to apologize to the rest of us, particular Americans, Gypsies, and Jews. How dare you compare the US to Nazi Germany? America is going through diligent checking of international visitors desiring permanent residence, not because of prejudice, but because terrorists attacked us. The US is not going to commit genocide on some group of Americans. As far as Middle-Easterners go, we have been repeatedly attacked by certain groups of Middle-Easterners. The 9/11 attack was only the last in a string. These attacks were unprovoked. Our country has no choice but to deal with the threat somehow. No doubt the US response is imperfect in any number of respects, but it’s just ignorant and disgusting to compare it to the Nazi slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, and all the other victims ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/125 "2003-01-24T00:01:50Z")
That is _exactly_ my point: 1- december has not proven in any way that his cousin is being denied _any_ right to which he would normally be entitled to 2-december has a history of justifying actions by the government which infringe in what are normally considered people’s rights 3- I say there is a contradiction is december’s positions. That’s all I am saying And in the past, when I pointed out his contradictions his answer was something to the effect that “consistency is for small minds”. I don’t remember the exact quote, maybe he does. When the US authorities were rounding up people left and right and those people were disappearing without any rights, was december clamoring against those actions? Nope. His explanation was that maybe many were illegally in the country or had committed some crime. Well, duh. We can say the same about his cousin. _Maybe_ he was illegally in the country or had commited some other crime. Then december said maybe some of those could be terrorists. Well, duh. Maybe his cousin is a terrorist for all the US government knows. Then december pointed out that some of the people had been released and not all had been kept in jail indefinitely. Well, I guess that means it is ok for the unliky ones that _were_ jailed without judicial review and without _any_ rights. From day one december has been defending _any_ action by the US government which was directed to fight the ongoing “war against terrorism”. In amny cases when I would point out that something was morally wrong his answer would be that it was legal. Well, guess what? As far as I can see what the government is doing to your cousin is much more legal than keeping people in jail without having to justify anything and more legal than many other things which are being questioned. So if “legal” is the operative term, your cousin is out of luck. And I will repeat once more: we have zero evidence that december’s cousin is entitled to anything and we have zero evidence that he was not, in fact, breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/126 "2003-01-24T00:04:52Z")
OOps, when I said “that is exactly my point” I was referring to Eva Luna’s post as it seemed to refer to my earlier post (although that was not very clear to me either). ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/127 "2003-01-24T16:19:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Now that you have apologized to Martin Niemoeller, you ought to apologize to the rest of us, particular Americans, Gypsies, and Jews. > > How dare you compare the US to Nazi Germany? America is going through diligent checking of international visitors desiring permanent residence, not because of prejudice, but because terrorists attacked us. The US is not going to commit genocide on some group of Americans. As far as Middle-Easterners go, we have been repeatedly attacked by certain groups of Middle-Easterners. The 9/11 attack was only the last in a string. These attacks were unprovoked. Our country has no choice but to deal with the threat somehow. No doubt the US response is imperfect in any number of respects, but it’s just ignorant and disgusting to compare it to the Nazi slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, and all the other victims \*\* **December** , you are a fool. Sadly, you are only one of a legion of fools. How dare I? How dare you not? Do you think Germany simply has a penchant for evil and that such things could never happen in the U.S.? Hitler didn’t just get up one morning and start rounding up Jews. There was a long series of incremental steps, each built on public acceptance of the prior one. Every wedge has its thin end. But of course, America could never contemplate any such wholesale violation of civil liberties so no one need be concerned. Americans should trust their government. After all, they’re the good guys! Bullshit. American officials are just as tempted to run off their moral rails as anyone else. Let’s forget, for the moment, about slavery or what happened to the Indian Nations – that’s ancient history!. Let’s talk about Earl Warren and the rounding-up of Japanese Americans. Let’s talk about a craven U.S. Supreme Court who rubber-stamped the government’s power to hold **American** citizens in concentration camps based on their ancestry. But of course, we in the West have learned so much since then! The American government is so much wiser, they’d never do anything like that today. Bullshit. Today, as we speak, U.S. government lawyers, sworn to uphold the U.S. Constitution, stand up in court and argue that the government has a right to imprison U.S. Citizens, deny them access to a lawyer and deny them access to a court or even a hearing – and all without even bothering to charge them with committing a crime. Today, as we speak, the U.S. government detains and even imprisons legal U.S. residents based solely on their ethnicity. Though I strongly doubt it, maybe all of these things are strictly necessary. But don’t imagine for a minute that America is somehow genetically immune to committing horrible crimes in the name of “national interest.” America is resistant to oppression only because there are mechanisms for people to speak out. If people don’t, those piranha will just have another bite, and another and another. And don’t rely on the “moral compass” of America’s leaders to prevent them from going too far, either. If Earl Warren can run off the rails, John Ashcroft can’t even find the train station. So yes, America is far from being Nazi Germany. I, for one, intend to see that it, and the rest of the West, stays that way. I never equated America with Nazi Germany, but if paraphrasing Niemoeller causes others to do so, well, that says something in and of itself. Niemoeller’s quote accurately describes how civil liberties become dangerously eroded in any country. Nazi Germany is a cautionary tale of what depths a progressive and tolerant society can sink to. Your foolish arrogance that nothing even remotely like it could ever happen in America is chilling. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/128 "2003-01-24T17:52:21Z")
\*\*Truth Seeker \*\*, here’s some help for you in seeking truth. > [@](#): > > Hitler didn’t just get up one morning and start rounding up Jews. There was a long series of incremental steps, each built on public acceptance of the prior one. Every wedge has its thin end. Give me a break. Hitler’s popularity was built on the theory of “superior race.” OTOH, Bush has gone out of his way to emphasize that the US is not at war with Islam. He has made statements in that direction, gone to Mosques, etc. I don’t recall Hitler ever making speeches in synogogues! > [@](#): > > Let’s forget, for the moment, about slavery or what happened to the Indian Nations – that’s ancient history! Slavery is not ancient history. It exists today in the Sudan. The US deserves blame for slavery, but it also deserves credit for ending slavery, at enormous cost. And, it deserves credit for making the world see the wrongness of slavery. > [@](#): > > Let’s talk about Earl Warren and the rounding-up of Japanese Americans. This was a horrible violation of civil liberties. However, it occurred at a time when Japan had chosen to attack the US and the loyalties of Japanese-Americans was in doubt. How can you compare this with the millions killed in the Holocost? > [@](#): > > Today, as we speak, U.S. government lawyers, sworn to uphold the U.S. Constitution, stand up in court and argue that the government has a right to imprison U.S. Citizens, deny them access to a lawyer and deny them access to a court or even a hearing – and all without even bothering to charge them with committing a crime. You’re talking about the one or two citizens who were captured while fighting with the enemy. Guess what? The court upheld this practice. Our government does have a Constitutional right to detain these people. If you’re going to take a high and mighty approach about the Constitution, you ought to find out what’s in it. > [@](#): > > Today, as we speak, the U.S. government detains and even imprisons legal U.S. residents based solely on their ethnicity. Baloney. Unless you have a cite for this, please admit you are wrong. > [@](#): > > But don’t imagine for a minute that America is somehow genetically immune to committing horrible crimes in the name of “national interest.” I agree. > [@](#): > > America is resistant to oppression only because there are mechanisms for people to speak out. It’s an interesting question why America has successfully retained its civil liberties so well. But, equating an overly long administrative delay with killing 6 million Jews and Gypsies isn’t the reason. Wildly exaggerating current civil liberties problems isn’t the answer. As Justice Robert Jackson said, _“The Constitution is not a suicide pact.”_ > [@](#): > > Your foolish arrogance that nothing even remotely like it could ever happen in America is chilling. I’m not saying that it couldn’t happen in America. But, it’s not happening now. It’s ignorant and childish to imagine that detaining two American citizens who were fighting with the enemy compares in any way to Nazi atrocities. You need a sense of proportion. It’s the lack of proportion that makes your comments offensive, particularly to us Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/129 "2003-01-24T18:29:05Z")
\*\*december, \*\* the two “enemy combatants” you mention are far from being the only people detained by INS, without right to counsel or even any information available to the public on how many people have been detained. Estimates range from 1,000-1,5000 people detained during INS’ initial roundup of Middle Eastern men, which was publicly depicted as a simple information-gathering exercise, not an attempt to round up Middle Eastern men and detain them for immigration or any other violations. Most have since been released, but an unknown number are still in custody, and so far the government has maintained that the public has no right to know the circumstances of their detention, or whether charges have been filed, or ever will be filed, against them. See this thread for more details: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=151537&highlight=immigration](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=151537&highlight=immigration) Ann unknown additional number (several hundred in Los Angeles alone) have also been detained since the inception of the new “special registration” program, including two of my firm’s clients. Enforcement of special registration as been extremely problematic, with INS changing many details of its implementation midstream, and with INS officers at many local offices being unaware even of which nationalities are subject to which deadlines and procedures, among other things (such as whether someone born in a country subject to special registration, but who has since become a citizen of another country, is required to register. Your cousin, being originally Pakistani, should check this out very carefully; INS’ Web site has more details.) So basically, INS has been making up all sorts of new and expansive rules, and enforcing them inconsistently; some people who are clearly subject to the registration requirement, if one has the reading comprehension ability to understand the rules, have been turned away by INS and told they aren’t required to register. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some of those people were later held liable and/or paced in deportation proceedings for their failure to register. Numerous others have been held in detention and/or been placed in deportation proceedings in spite of the fact that they have applications pending with INS, which have remained unadjudicated for long periods of time, but which, if adjudicated, would place them back in legal status. The rules apply, with the exception of North Korea, only to citizens of countries with predominantly Arab and/or Muslim poplulations, as there is no practical way to determine a person’s religion or ethnicity by looking at his passport; in practical terms, however, this amounts to racial discrimination. (Sorry, but I can’t cite specific instances, as they are provided to personnel within my firm by the American Immigration Lawyers Association and other immigrant advocacy organization which has been collecting data on Special Registration with great enthusiasm; this data, however, is confidential.) In sum, your cousin’s situation may not be a civil liberties issue, but there are certainly lots of other immigration issues banging around the U.S. at the moment which have HUGE civil liberties implications. I, for one, as an American and as a Jew, have no problem with the comparison to Nazis. I also suspect that one of my former co-workers, the Immigration Judge of Japanese descent whose grandmother was put in a detention camp and later received compensation for her losses, would also find it an apt, if somewhat exaggerated comparison. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/130 "2003-01-24T18:36:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*december, \*\* the two “enemy combatants” you mention are far from being the only people detained by INS, without right to counsel You are right, and so was I. I said they were the only _American citizens_ being so detained. AFAIK none of the 1000 - 1500 people originally detained were citizens and none of the unknown number of them still held are citizens. Of course, those held because of INS registration violations are not citizens. > [@](#): > > In sum, your cousin’s situation may not be a civil liberties issue, but there are certainly lots of other immigration issues banging around the U.S. at the moment which have HUGE civil liberties implications. I, for one, as an American and as a Jew, have no problem with the comparison to Nazis. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/131 "2003-01-24T18:42:45Z")
So then you don’t think non-citizens should have the same protections against unjust improsonment, or the same right to counsel? That’s terrifying to me. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/132 "2003-01-24T18:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*So then you don’t think non-citizens should have the same protections against unjust improsonment, or the same right to counsel? That’s terrifying to me. \*\* Too bad. That’s what the Constitution says. Various rulings have upheld a quite different set of protections for non-citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/133 "2003-01-24T18:55:40Z")
Where does the Constitution say non-citizens can be imprisoned with impunity and without right to counsel? Or are you basing your opinion on case law? In either case, I’d appreciate a cite or two, and an explanation as to why you think this is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/134 "2003-01-24T19:01:29Z")
I don’t have the cites at hand as to the case law. This issue has been discussed on this message board. My understanding is that the Constitution as written basically applies to citizens. Over time, courts have added rights for non-citizens. IIRC what some lawyer posted here, visitors from abroad have a right that the US follow its own procedures, whatever they may be. I think resident aliens may have somewhat greater rights, but my memory is pretty foggy. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/135 "2003-01-24T19:18:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Too bad. That’s what the Constitution says. Various rulings have upheld a quite different set of protections for non-citizens. \*\* While it may be Constitutionally correct, it’s not exactly helping the US to appear consistent. Some Americans hold their country up as the shining beacon of the world in terms of issues like freedom of speech, human rights, and due process etc., and are happy to bomb other countries to force such freedoms upon them. Yet those same people are also happy to deny those freedoms to non-citizens within the US. If American standards are indeed those that you want the world to follow, why not set an example and apply them to all people detained in the United States? It doesn’t say very much about the alleged universality of your value system if you’re only prepared to apply it to citizens. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/136 "2003-01-24T19:38:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I don’t have the cites at hand as to the case law. This issue has been discussed on this message board. > > My understanding is that the Constitution as written basically applies to citizens. Over time, courts have added rights for non-citizens. IIRC what some lawyer posted here, visitors from abroad have a right that the US follow its own procedures, whatever they may be. I think resident aliens may have somewhat greater rights, but my memory is pretty foggy. \*\* Foggy is the correct word. Every time the issue has been discussed the consensus has been that non-citizens enjoy pretty much all the constitutional rights of citizens except the right of abode, but, as long as they are under US jurisdiction they enjoy all other rights and protections. The idea that a non-citizen can be punished without due process is not only wrong, it is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/137 "2003-01-24T19:51:18Z")
The only special protection that a citizen enjoys over a non-citizen is that a citizen can never be deported. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/138 "2003-01-24T19:52:23Z")
lots of historical examples of non citizens being afforded the same Constitutional rights WRT criminal justice system - Manuel Noriega for example. I’ve tripped over any number of alien folks in the prison systems, their trials were indistinguishable from US citizens. only difference was that post release the non citizens had a possability of being deported. But the process (prior to release) was identical. Of course, the claim is now that ‘enemy combatant status’ is not the same as a criminal course. Any body know how we dealt w/German spies residing in the US during WWII (which, having the advantage over the current situation was an actual declared war). If said spies were afforded due process, I would suggest that an internal inconsistency exists. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/139 "2003-01-24T19:53:39Z")
Nice bait and switch, **December**. > [@](#): > > ## \*\*: > > ## Today, as we speak, the U.S. government detains and even imprisons legal U.S. residents based solely on their ethnicity. > > _ **originally posted by December** _ > Baloney. Unless you have a cite for this, please admit you are wrong. \*\* > [@](#): > > _originally posted by December_\*\* > I said they were the only American citizens being so detained. AFAIK none of the 1000 - 1500 people originally detained were citizens and none of the unknown number of them still held are citizens. Of course, those held because of INS registration violations are not citizens. \*\* Really, you make this too easy. Now I expect _you_ to admit that you were wrong and that you, too, are dreadfully concerned about the state of civil liberties in the U.S… . . . Ok, “expect” is far too strong. > [@](#): > > \*\*You’re talking about the one or two citizens who were captured while fighting with the enemy. Guess what? The court upheld this practice. Our government does have a Constitutional right to detain these people. If you’re going to take a high and mighty approach about the Constitution, you ought to find out what’s in it. \*\* Wrong again. At least try and keep your propaganda straight. In the Saudi citizen case, one appellate upheld the government’s right to use a declaration to declare an american citizen an enemy combatant. Jose Padilla’s case, however, is quite a different matter. Jose Padilla, is a U.S. citizen born in the Bronx who has been accused of – though never charged with – helping Al Qaeda. He was arrested IIRC, at a U.S. airport. The government has tranferred him to military custody and claims he has no constitutional rights _ **whatsoever** _ A brave district court judge is currently handing the government its head in this case. [Cite.](http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-stall0116,0,6259294.story?coll=ny-nynews-headlines) As for what the Constitution says, well, first, I suggest you read the Fifth Amendment – no process can never be due process. Second, I’d remind you that the U.S. Supreme Court upheld putting American citizens in concentration camps in _Korematsu_. That doesn’t make it right. > [@](#): > > \*\*This was a horrible violation of civil liberties. However, it occurred at a time when Japan had chosen to attack the US and the loyalties of Japanese-Americans was in doubt. How can you compare this with the millions killed in the Holocost? \*\* It is frightening that you don’t see the irony in this statement. We are now in a time when various groups of Islamic fundamentalists have chosed to attack the United States. These groups are actively try to recruit like-minded Muslims for their jihad. The government, once again, suspects the loyalty of a whole bunch of people who are legally in the U.S., based solely on their national origin. Yet you seen no parallels. Truly frightening. As for comparing putting U.S. citizens in concentration camps with the Holocaust, I see no need to, though you, apparently, do. Once again, Niemoeller’s quote describes a process which can happen in the U.S. – which _has_ happened in the U.S. – just as it can happen anywhere else. The best way to prevent that process from occuring is to scream bloody murder as soon as the government puts a single toe on that path, whether we are “personally” affected or not. > [@](#): > > \*\*It’s the lack of proportion that makes your comments offensive, particularly to us Jews. \*\* Again I say, bullshit. First you are the one who keeps trying to compare America to Nazi Germany. I am not. Nor do I ever wish to be able to do so, which is precisely why I am so concerned when the government attempts to abrogate any of the civil liberties that prevent the U.S. from going down that path. Nazi Germany is a lesson to everybody in the world. One of the key lessons to be learned is that you must fight for civil liberties whenever they are threatened, not just when yours are threatened. The best way to honor the victims of the Holocaust is to learn that lesson and to live it every day. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997/140 "2003-01-24T21:32:00Z")
\*\*december, \*\* you are trying to worm your way out of this one. Why should we believe you that non-citizens don’t have the same rights to counsel and freedom from arbitrary detention as non-citizens if you can’t even come up with one line from the Constitution, case law, or even a newspaper article that supports you? Hell, you haven’t even explained your own opinion why you think this should be the case, which presumably wouldn’t require any research. You are fast losing whatever remaining credibility you may have had on this board, at least in my own eyes. Going once, going twice… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-cousin-cant-get-back-from-canada/149997.md?page=8)