# My new oven has a Sabbath feature! Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 3, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145 "2003-11-03T13:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/1 "2003-11-03T13:34:41Z")
Okay, given the [trials and tribulations of our old stove](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=221019), **burundi** and I just purchased a new one. It’s your pretty basic stove – except for the Sabbath Feature. The manual just has a brief explanation that this feature complies with Jewish Sabbath law or something. The instructions for its use are unclear to me; the main weird thing the feature seems to do is that: 1. You tell it how long to cook at what temperature and then press the Sabbath Feature button (or code or something); **2) It waits a random amount of time between 30 and 60 seconds**; and 2. It starts cooking. Huh? Can anyone explain to me how this feature satisfies laws around the Sabbath? I’m pretty ignorant about Jewish law, mind you, but it’s obviously dealing with the restriction against work on the Sabbath; I’m just curious how a random length of time between pressing the buttons and the oven’s turning on gets around this restriction. Can anyone explain this to me? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/2 "2003-11-03T13:42:56Z")
I think the random time feature is the key. As you are not supposed to work on the Sabbath, the feature in effect means YOU didn’t turn on the stove, or timer. More information soon I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/3 "2003-11-03T13:53:11Z")
[The Word Spy](http://www.wordspy.com/words/Sabbathmode.asp) has this to say: > [@](#): > > If you have a relatively new oven, you may not know that it has a built-in safety feature that automatically shuts off the oven after 12 hours or so. This is sensible, but it has been problematic for Jews keeping kosher on the Sabbath and on Jewish holidays because they’re forbidden to turn ovens (or any electrical appliances) on during that time. However, it is permissible to use electrical appliances that are already on. Hence the need for a Sabbath mode that keeps an oven on at a specified temperature for as long as it’s required. The cook can whip up a meal prior to the Sabbath or holiday and then leave it in the always-warm oven until it is ready to be eaten. > > This innovation first appeared in KitchenAid ovens back in 1994 ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/4 "2003-11-03T14:02:02Z")
It sounds like the feature **DanielWithrow** ’s stove has is different than the feature **jovan** ’s Word Spy quote is talking about. Perhaps **DanielWithrow** ’s stove’s Sabbath feature is because it is not permissible to use fire (or turn on electrical devices, which can create a spark, as I understand the reasoning) on the Sabbath. So all you have to do is initiate the process, and the oven itself turns on the fire (if a gas stove) or powers up the coils (if an electric stove) randomly. Thus allowing you to get stuff done while still following the letter of the law. But maybe my thoughts are completely off-base and it has to do with the work thing that **GaryM** suggested. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/5 "2003-11-03T14:23:44Z")
Well, this [Kenmore page](http://www.star-k.org/cons-appl-kenmore-kenwhirlpool.htm) has a more detailed explanation of what their Sabbath mode does: > [@](#): > > The oven cavity light will remain off while the oven is in Sabbath mode. > The oven temperature cannot be initiated, adjusted or turned off on the Sabbath. > On the Sabbath, in lieu of a “blech”, the oven controls must be covered. (Be careful not to cover vent openings.) > On the Sabbath, the oven door can only be opened once, all the food removed and then closed. On the Holidays, the oven door can be opened/closed at any time as often as desired. > On the Holidays, the temperature can be adjusted (but not initiated or turned off) at any time following the instructions in the owner’s manual (because there is a delay between the request and implementation). > These ovens have timed bake in the Sabbath mode. This feature can only be initiated before the Sabbath/Holiday. Once timed bake goes off, the oven cannot be used again for that Sabbath/Holiday. > These ovens have a delay start feature in the Sabbath mode. For use on the Sabbath, all food must be in the oven before the Sabbath begins. > After recovery from a power failure, all these ovens will stay off. They will remain in the Sabbath mode, however, there will be no cooking capability. I also found [an article](http://www.baltimoremagazine.net/monthly/2003/2003_10/baltinc/default.htm) that explains the delay thing: > [@](#): > > ne of the challenges General Electric engineers had to tackle was setting a temperature by pushing numbers on a keypad—doing so would be giving a direct command to the oven and in violation of Jewish law. “We can’t do any work directly,” says Ottensoser. “But you can do things indirectly, although there are different opinions; not everyone agrees with that point of view.” > > The solution was to put in a random delay of between 15 and 30 seconds between the command and the implementation of that command, thus allowing consumers to adjust the temperature at will. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/6 "2003-11-03T15:13:22Z")
Holy sophistry, Batman!!! :eek: ;j ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/7 "2003-11-03T15:45:30Z")
Thanks, **jovan**! I’d found your first article, but not the second one. To be honest, I suspected the reasoning was something like this (the random delay was sufficient to trick God into thinking you weren’t actually doing work on the Sabbath), and my reaction was similar to **godzillatemple’s** – it seems like a pretty blatantly cheaty way to get around the rule. Is there a significant number of Orthodox Jews who observe the restriction on using an oven on the Sabbath but who are willing to use a workaround like this? It just seems so, I dunno, legalistic or something. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/8 "2003-11-03T19:50:24Z")
I’ve gotta say … were I an observant jew, I’d spend the sabbath eating cold leftovers. Period. Not doing any work is way too much work. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/9 "2003-11-03T20:44:27Z")
> [@](#): > > On the Sabbath, in lieu of a “blech”, the oven controls must be covered. Anyone know what a “blech” is? Also, if someone can explain how the random interval between adjustment and result makes the action “kosher” (probably not the right term, but I hope you know what I mean). I guess I can see setting a timer on Friday, before the Sabbath starts, and putting the food in the oven beforehand so it will be ready for dinner on the Sabbath, but I don’t get the random interval idea. Am I right in thinking that it is OK to take food out of the oven, but not put it in? Or can you do this if you don’t adjust the temperature? And is the thing about the oven light not coming on for Sabbath mode because you can’t turn a light on or off on the Sabbath? Obviously, if any of my questions are offensive, please disregard and forgive. Some Jewish Dopers were very kind to me in answering some cooking questions when I had a Jewish co-worker to my house for dinner once. And you must get sick of answering stupid questions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/10 "2003-11-03T20:45:59Z")
I just wonder if Jewish kids spend the last five minutes before the Sabbath turning on all their TVs and radios and computers and PlayStation 2s in the house… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/11 "2003-11-03T21:09:14Z")
Shodan: > [@](#): > > Anyone know what a “blech” is? A “blech” is a sheet of metal that covers an entire range top, on which there will usually be one open flame. Items can be placed anywhere on it to stay warm if they are already warm and fully cooked, and there are various restrictions on placing cool items too close to the flame. Basically, the only cooking not allowed on Sabbath according to pure Torah law is to make raw items cooked, and no problem with warming items that are already fully cooked. But the Rabbis decreed that warming up fully cooked items should also not be done on the Sabbath since it’s too easy to make a mistake in the matter. However, if one covers the flame, then that serves as a reminder that will help avoid transgressing the Biblical prohibition. (This is, obviously, an oversimplification.) > [@](#): > > Also, if someone can explain how the random interval between adjustment and result makes the action “kosher” (probably not the right term, but I hope you know what I mean). The reason is a concept in Jewish law called “grama”, which basically means “indirect cause.” (again, oversimplifying in the following) There is no prohibition in doing an action which will be an indirect cause of forbidden Sabbath work getting done. However, something is not considered “grama” if it is a positive action which will defnitely result in the prohibition being done. The switch in question circumvents this (IIRC) by being a negative action, not a positive action. The classic halachic example of this is if a deer is inside someone’s house with the door open. To actually close the door would result in the forbidden Sabbath work of trapping the animal. However, if it’s a windy day, and the door is being kept open only by a doorstop, then removing the doorstop is not considered to be a forbidden act of trapping. One is allowing the wind, at some undetermined time, to slam the door shut, but his action did not directly contribute to the shutting of the door and there was no certainty that it would happen. Inside this switch is actually a light beam which is being blocked. pressing the switch will remove the blockage (as the doorstop in the above example) and allow the light beam to render the circuit complete. However, if the light beam was steady, or emitted on a steady schedule, then the completion of the circuit is considered a direct result. By randomizing the light beam’s schedule, the element of certainty is removed (like the wind in the above example). > [@](#): > > Am I right in thinking that it is OK to take food out of the oven, but not put it in? Or can you do this if you don’t adjust the temperature? And is the thing about the oven light not coming on for Sabbath mode because you can’t turn a light on or off on the Sabbath? You are correct in both of those assumptions. And you can’t put the food into the oven to warm even if you don’t adjust the temperature because of the Rabbinic prohibition mentioned in the first portion of this post…there is (as far as I know; there are, however, more knowledgeable dopers than I on the board. Hopefully IzzyR will check in) no equivalent to that “blech” for the inside of the oven. And yes, a lot of the above is legalistic sophistry. But it’s also legitimate Jewish law, so…big deal. What’s permitted by technicality is still permitted. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/12 "2003-11-03T22:18:48Z")
Thanks as ever, **cmkeller**. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/13 "2003-11-03T23:31:48Z")
[hijack]Since the New York KosherDopers apparently tend to check out GQ before MPSIMS, and at least one of them is here, I thought I’d note here my MPSIMS thread [NYC KosherDopers – January Dopefest Planning Help, Please.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=221169)[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/14 "2003-11-03T23:58:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*I just wonder if Jewish kids spend the last five minutes before the Sabbath turning on all their TVs and radios and computers and PlayStation 2s in the house… 😉 \*\* Well, in my house, turning the computer _off_ is the absolute last thing I do before the Sabbath, since I can’t bear to be parted from my precious email for any longer than necessary. But no, TV/radio/etc are considered activites not conducive to the Sabbath spirit. I remember one Passover when I was maybe fifteen I accidentally left my alarm set, so it woke me with the radio for the first two mornings. I felt very weird having the radio on in my room, and spent as little time as possible in there for the hour before it turned itself off. ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/15 "2003-11-04T00:22:53Z")
Isn’t the Sabbath a fasting day? I went over to a Jewish friends house when they were fasting to work on a high-school project. It took me ten minutes to convince him that I could type 50 times faster than he could hunt and peck in his starved state. I think complicated machines should be off-limits for this reason if no other! ;j ---
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/16 "2003-11-04T00:27:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > \*\*Not doing any work is way too much work. \*\* Every Friday evening the Rabbi across the street comes and knocks on the door and leads me back to his house in order to push some button or other. I have turned lights on and off, adjusted the timer (which controls the household electricity), taken things out of the oven, etc. The Rabbi is a great guy…his kids are cute too, not to mention extremely polite. But he goes through a lot more “work” trudging across the street, waiting for me to get shoes, and dragging my butt around than he would if he’d just poke the dumb buttons himself. I confess to not understanding this issue of what constitues “work” and why they adhere to it. L ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/17 "2003-11-04T00:47:56Z")
Nifty feature. Nothing like getting God on a technicality, eh? ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/18 "2003-11-04T01:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nanoda \* > \*\*Isn’t the Sabbath a fasting day? I went over to a Jewish friends house when they were fasting to work on a high-school project. It took me ten minutes to convince him that I could type 50 times faster than he could hunt and peck in his starved state. I think complicated machines should be off-limits for this reason if no other! ;j \*\* The Sabbath involves eating. Much, much eating. Three nice meals are actually required, plus I tend to snack quite a bit. In the winter, when I have no Friday afternoon because sunset is so early, I start cooking Wednesday night (I work during the day, so I have to get my cooking done in the evening). Then I wonder why people make such a huge screaming fuss about Thanksgiving, when I single-handedly cook a three course meal weekly (FWIW, I’m in my early twenties and a mostly self-taught cook). There are six fast days a year, but if any of them (other than Yom Kippur) happen to fall out on a Saturday, they get pushed off until Sunday, since the Sabbath, eating included, is considered more important. Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year, and takes precedence over even the Sabbath; it’ll be on Friday night/Saturday next year, and I’m sure it’ll feel deeply weird. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/19 "2003-11-04T03:37:16Z")
SexyWriter: > [@](#): > > I confess to not understanding this issue of what constitues “work” and why they adhere to it. What constitues “work” is any creative activity that was necessary in the process of making the Jewish Tabernacle during the Israelites’ sojourn from Egypt. There is a list of 39 categories of such actions in halachic (Jewish legal) literature, and each of those categories includes actions similar to the “main” action itself (e.g., threshing wheat is one such “main” action, and squeezing juice from a fruit is an action of similar nature that is also forbidden). As for why we adhere to it…well, I’m sure you do understand that…has something to do with believing it was commanded by G-d… Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/20 "2003-11-04T04:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GMRyujin \* > \*\*Nifty feature. Nothing like getting God on a technicality, eh? \*\* Aaah, but have they? Is the verdict in? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145.md?page=2)