# My new oven has a Sabbath feature! Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 3, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145 "2003-11-03T13:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/41 "2003-11-05T20:21:41Z")
Okay, what about recreation? I like to read, obviously, but I also like to write, draw, and do hand embroidery. Writing-well, I do that by computer, so that would be out, but what about drawing? And what about hand embroidery? It’s so NOT work for me-in fact, it’s very very relaxing. So would it be out, even though it’s not “work”? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/42 "2003-11-05T22:22:46Z")
IzzyR: > [@](#): > > You might be overdoing it a bit here. You don’t need to know the exact second. Maybe so, but you still need a degree of certainty that is not satisfied by merely knowing that it will be done at some indeterminate time in the next (fill in the time interval of your choice). > [@](#): > > This is a controversial subject - there are different rulings. There are different rulings about a lot of things. Still, the prevailing practice amongst Sabbath-observant Jews is to open and close refigerators and freezers, is it not? What community refrains from doing so? > [@](#): > > This is generally not correct. However, a shvus d’shvus b’makom mitzva is permitted, and many cases fall under this category. But not everything. Sorry…deliberate oversimplification on my part here. SexyWriter: Before I address the technincal questions you asked, I’ve got to address the bombshell in your last paragraphs: > [@](#): > > I also haven’t mentioned to the Rabbi…my mother found out a couple of years ago that her biological mother was Jewish… > Maybe I should tell him…he might feel bad if he knew I was “technically” Jewish…like he was breaking his own laws or something. Absolutely tell him. While it may be your choice to not take on any Jewish observance since your “technical” Jewishness was revealed to you, he certainly wouldn’t want to be an active accessory in your non-observance. Now, to address the rest of your questions as they apply to a “technical” non-Jew… > [@](#): > > If the Rabbi believes that it’s against G\_d’s law to perform these actions (do Jews call them sins?) then does he believe I’m going to hell (or the Jewish equivalent) for performing the simple tasks he asks me to do? No, a Jew does not believe a non-Jew would go to Hell (which we do believe in, possibly not as per Dante’s specs, but definitely as some form of after-life punishement) for the “sin” (yes, we do call it that) of doing things on the Sabbath that would be forbidden for a Jew. The Sabbath, and most other laws of the Bible are only intended to be binding on Jews. > [@](#): > > As for being allowed to perform tasks that fall under “Rabbinical Prohibition” status, does it make any difference (or isn’t it interesting, anyway) that the person who generally comes to get me to perform these tasks IS the RABBI. No difference; “Rabbinical” is as opposed to “Biblical”, not as opposed to “Layman.” Rabbis are capable of declaring Biblically permitted things prohibited in order that people won’t come to mistakenly perform similar actions which _are_ Biblically prohibited. This is metaphorically referred to as “making a fence around he Torah.” Such Rabbinic decrees (which can be thousands of years old) are just as binding on Jews as Biblical laws. However, when the Rabbis do such things, they often allow for certain circumstances under which those prohibited actions can be performed, said circumstance rendering it impossible to confuse what’s permitted with what’s Biblically prohibited. One such circumstance is when an action would involve two Rabbinical prohibitions. Telling a non-Jew to do something forbidden is itself only a Rabbinical prohibition. If that action that is being requested of the non-Jew is a Rabbinical prohibition, then the effect of that “double fence” (to refer to the previous metaphor) is enough to avoid confusion with doing a Biblically prohibited act. (and, as IzzyR said, but in Hebrew, such a thing can only be done for the sake of performing a commandment) Guinastasia: > [@](#): > > Okay, what about recreation? > > I like to read, obviously, but I also like to write, draw, and do hand embroidery. Writing-well, I do that by computer, so that would be out, but what about drawing? > > And what about hand embroidery? It’s so NOT work for me-in fact, it’s very very relaxing. So would it be out, even though it’s not “work”? Yes, because it’s CREATION. That’s the whole deal with the Jewish Sabbath in a nutshell…G-d didn’t rest from exertion - how could G-d exert himself? - he rested from creating new physical things, and as an object lesson, devoted the next day to spiritual endeavors. It is creative work that is forbidden on the Sabbath. Even if it’s physically or mentally relaxing, it is not emulating what G-d did in Genesis. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/43 "2003-11-05T23:32:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SexyWriter \* > \*\* > > Maybe I should tell him…he might feel bad if he knew I was “technically” Jewish…like he was breaking his own laws or something. > \*\* Second hand anecdote : a former gf of mine once wanted to stay some months in the UK as an “au pair” . But she began to search for it quite late, and essentially all the offers were already filled. Except one which requested a Jewish girl. She happened to be “technically” jewish (her grand mother on her mother’s side was Jew, but her own mother had adopted some kind of “new-age-buddist-whatever” philosophy, her father was irreligious and of catholic descent, so herself was totally ignorant about anything Jewish). Apparently, the “employers” were at first pissed off when they discovered she didn’t have the slightest clue about Jewish customs, religion and laws, but then, as in the example given above, asked her to do various things which weren’t permitted to them during the Sabbath. And that despite knowing she was technically a Jew. Then perhaps they just assumed she had been lying to get the job and wasn’t Jew at all. In any case, it apparently didn’t bother them too much to have her doing these things. (she also caused some mess since she didn’t know that one can’t use any random pan/ustensil to cook whatever food had to be cooked, especially not when cooking her own food in her own usual way) ---
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/44 "2003-11-06T00:46:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\*Before I address the technincal questions you asked, I’ve got to address the bombshell in your last paragraphs: > \*\* You thought this was a bombshell? Imagine how I felt when, at 30 years old I went to bed with an Irish Catholic background and woke up Jewish. My mom called me after receiving her paperwork (which I requested for her) and proclaimed, “Oy vey!” I do hope (and it seems so) that no one is offended by my actions. My reasoning for helping the Rabbi goes like this: 1. Rabbi needs help. 2. I’d like to help. Rabbi et al are nice family. 3. If I get into my Jewish heritage with him, I won’t be able to help him out. 4. Might as well just flip the switches for him. I simply operated under the same principle I used when someone came to the door and asked to use my phone because their car was on fire. But now I feel a little like a “fraud.” Maybe if I tell him next time he comes over, he can answer some questions I have about being Jewish. I DO understand, at least in some sense, why they need help almost every Friday night with something or other: They have a large family, with kids in a huge age range. They obviously have frequent gatherings with either extended family or community members. They obviously have major involvement with the local Hebrew school, as there is always a van of even MORE kids pulling in or out of the driveway. I’m surprised they don’t need someone to move in with them to help them prepare for meals…prohibitions against work or not. L ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/45 "2003-11-06T04:25:07Z")
I think you are making a mistake by not telling the rabbi that you are Jewish by birth. While it shouldn’t necessarily make any difference to you, it clearly makes a difference to him. By not telling him, in his eyes, you are causing him to do a very bad thing. It doesn’t seem like you are helping him. In his eyes (I’m assuming) any small physical help you are giving him would be outweighed by the fact that he was instrumental in causing you to break the Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/46 "2003-11-06T14:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > There are different rulings about a lot of things. Still, the prevailing practice amongst Sabbath-observant Jews is to open and close refigerators and freezers, is it not? What community refrains from doing so? I agree that most people open them, but it is not a settled issue. R’ Moshe Feinstein felt that one should not open them, for example, along with many others. I don’t know if there is a specific community of people that do not open them, but many many individuals don’t. I myself open refrigerators - I’ve considered not doing it, but my parents always did, and there are lenient rulings. I should stress that all this applies to opening them when the motor is off. When the motor is on there is no problem, and those who are strict about it open and close them in this manner. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/47 "2003-11-06T15:39:56Z")
> [@](#): > > This seems like the appropriate thread to ask about the “park bridges” in my area. If you travel along I-696, you will pass thru this one city that has a large Jewish population. Crossing over the freeway at this point are three bridges. They’re very wide (maybe a hundred yards or so each) and the top of the bridges is covered with dirt and planted with bushes and trees and stuff. I’ve been told that these structures exist because Orthodox Jews can’t cross bridges on the sabbath. My first guess would be that these are designed to allow wildlife to cross the bridges, as I know similar structures have been built for that purpose. Do they cross from one large park area to another? ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/48 "2003-11-06T16:33:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SexyWriter \* > **You thought this was a bombshell? Imagine how I felt when, at 30 years old I went to bed with an Irish Catholic background and woke up Jewish. My mom called me after receiving her paperwork (which I requested for her) and proclaimed, "Oy vey!"** Practically speaking, you are still _you_. The fact that you are now what is sometimes referred to as, “culturally Jewish” changes nothing since you weren’t raised Jewish. I remember there was a thread about a year or so ago where a guy who was obviously trolling posted that he was now Jewish (culturally) and wanted to know how he was different. I think he thought he was now “entitled” to something he previously wasn’t. Anyway, I’d still tell the rabbi and see if he still wants you to do things for him. Although, I’m with **IzzyR** in wondering why he needs you to turn lights on _every_ week. After a while of being _shomer shabbat_ (“observant of Sabbath”), most people make enough preparations on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/49 "2003-11-06T17:40:26Z")
Yeah, can’t he get those lights that have timers? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/50 "2003-11-06T17:45:09Z")
Im going to have to get a better look at those bridge thingys to see if I can tell if they’re eruv of either kind. (I posted a reply about this yesterday, but apparently the hampsters ate it.) ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/51 "2003-11-06T18:49:05Z")
Just out of curiosity, how do Jews treat adoption? Is **SexyWriter** ’s mom _really_ Jewish, if she was legally adopted as an infant by a non-Jewish family? How about babies not of Jewish descent who are adopted into Jewish families? Does something have to be done to “make” them Jews? (I guess this is all a little muddled by the difference between Judaism as a religion and as an ethnicity). ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/52 "2003-11-06T20:39:17Z")
ENugent: > [@](#): > > Just out of curiosity, how do Jews treat adoption? There is no legal structure of adoption at all in Jewish law. It is a very praiseworthy and kind thing to do, and there are a number of statements in Jewish literature that say as much, but as far as legalities…a non-Jew being raised by a Jew would still need a formal conversion to be Jewish, and a Jew raised by a non-Jew would not lose his or her Jewish status. An adopted child doesn’t even have the obligation of “Honor thy father and mother” toward his or her adoptive parents. He owes them a great debt of gratitude, but not the specifics of the “Honor” law that would apply to natural parents. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/53 "2003-11-06T21:31:08Z")
You’d think God would be onto these kinds of cunning ways to get around his rulings, and wouldn’t approve. Or then again, maybe he’d be impressed by their ingenuity. It’s a tough call, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/54 "2003-11-06T22:03:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > \*\*Or then again, maybe he’d be impressed by their ingenuity. It’s a tough call, I suppose. \*\* He is. Forget about **Danielwithrow’s** oven. Just look at Achnai’s oven. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/55 "2003-11-06T22:30:26Z")
If **SexyWriter** does tell the Rabbi that she is jewish will the Rabbi then feel he has sinned for all the times she did turn on lights etc? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/56 "2003-11-06T22:32:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > You’d think God would be onto these kinds of cunning ways to get around his rulings, and wouldn’t approve. > > Or then again, maybe he’d be impressed by their ingenuity. It’s a tough call, I suppose. Judaism is a kind of legalistic religion, and this can lead to misconceptions among those who are not accustomed to this concept. (Christianity, by comparison, seems like more of a “general principle” kind of religion, where you are guided by general principles but decide for yourself about specific actions. Non-orthodox versions of Judaism are more similar to Christianity in this regard). The way it works in Judaism is very similar to the American legal system. The laws are guided by general principles, but you don’t get to decide for yourself if this particular law in this particular instance is necessary to fulfill the principle. The principle is the basis for the law, but once it is there it’s there. So you don’t get to decide that going over the speed limit is quite safe under the particular circumstance that you find yourself in, and you don’t get to decide that “work” in this case is easier than “rest”. Others have noted that in some instances work is in fact easier than non-work. This is true. In individual cases in works out that way, but the general effect is a push in the right direction. Similarly in your case, you are making the assumption that managing to get things running without violating the laws is “get[ing] around [God’s] rulings”. This is apparently based on an assumption that what God wants is for people to not have these things available. An incorrect assumption. What God wants is for people to keep his laws. As long as these are kept, He is happy if people can work things out to their satisfaction. There are instances where the rabbi’s have felt that some actions would in fact violate the spirit of God’s intentions. So for example, they outlawed monetary transactions on Saturday. But this was not to correct an ingenuous way around a law, but to correct something that on its own represented an undermining of the Sabbath principle. The mere fact that something is done in a technically permitted way to accomplish the same ends as a forbidden way might accomplish does not represent an undermining of anything. **Captain Amazing** , I can’t figure out what you mean and I do what the _tanur shel achnai_ was. I can only imagine those who don’t. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/57 "2003-11-06T23:15:34Z")
> [@](#): > > What God wants is for people to keep his laws. As long as these are kept, He is happy if people can work things out to their satisfaction. No offence, but how do _you_ know that’s what God wants? As far as I can tell, the difficulty in figuring out what God really wants is why there are so many factions of so many religions. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/58 "2003-11-06T23:18:13Z")
I’m still not sure why you can’t simply hire gentiles to do your cooking, etc. on the sabbath. If the Jewish laws don’t apply to them, what’s the harm in them doing your “work” for you, provided you don’t actually pay them during the sabbath? Also, concerning the random delay feature: When I turn on a light, I assume it takes a small amount of time (maybe a couple nanoseconds) for the light to actually go on, and the delay is probably not \*precisely \*the same amount each time. So in principle, how is the stove different from the light switch? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/59 "2003-11-06T23:18:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > **Captain Amazing** , I can’t figure out what you mean and I do what the _tanur shel achnai_ was. I can only imagine those who don’t. \*\* Because in the case of the _tanur shel achnai_, Rabbi Eliezer goes so far to get direct direct divine endorsement for his point of view. So what does Rabbi Joshua do? He doesn’t say, “Well, we have a direct statement from G-d, R. Eliezer must be right.” He says “The Torah is not in heaven, it’s already been given at Sinai, and you’ve said at Sinai, ‘one must incline after the majority’”. So, then what does G-d do, according to Rabbi Nathan, who hears it from Elijah? Does He get angry? After all, the Rabbis have used the Torah to disagree with the divine voice. No, He laughs, and says “My children have defeated me”. So the story shows that, it seems to me, G-d is pleased when people “get around” a direct ruling, so to speak, by careful interpretation of the Torah…or more precisely, not to take the words of the Torah at face value, but to study Torah to see what it means and what is allowed and disallowed…that He doesn’t want blind automotons, but people who understand the law and how to apply it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145/60 "2003-11-07T00:55:28Z")
**panache45** , um, I think you kind of HAVE to pay people-otherwise, why would they wanna work? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-new-oven-has-a-sabbath-feature-huh/211145.md?page=4)