# My observation about Heinlein. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 15, 2001, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314 "2001-08-15T02:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/21 "2001-08-15T19:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danimal \* > **No, not all of them. Miss Grew in _Podkayne of Mars_ is a fat and unattractive woman, though superficially quite charming. And the heroine (I’ve forgotten her name) in _Farnham’s Freehold_ is described as quite plain and "horse-faced."** Barbara. His daughter was named Karen, his wife’s name was Grace. The house boy was named Joseph. The cat was named Doctor Livingstone I Presume. His son’s name was Duke. Off the top of my head. Can you tell I’ve read the book more than just a few times? ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/22 "2001-08-15T19:58:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mort Furd \* > \*\*Barbara. His daughter was named Karen, his wife’s name was Grace. The house boy was named Joseph. The cat was named Doctor Livingstone I Presume. His son’s name was Duke. > > Off the top of my head. Can you tell I’ve read the book more than just a few times? \*\* You are the Master, **Mort Furd**. I bow. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/23 "2001-08-15T20:09:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rmariamp \* > **And you do not remark upon his seeming fetish for freshly blooming 13 year olds??** No, no, you’re looking for the Piers Anthony thread, two doors down. –sublight. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/24 "2001-08-15T23:01:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sublight \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by rmariamp \* > > **And you do not remark upon his seeming fetish for freshly blooming 13 year olds??** > > No, no, you’re looking for the Piers Anthony thread, two doors down. > > –sublight. \*\* 🙂 That too, I suppose. In _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ he does seem to want to “spank her untill her bottom turns pink” the girl in question being 13. I did find that unsettling too, being as he almost slept with her, and did not seem to find it that much of a problem. Ick indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/25 "2001-08-15T23:26:12Z")
> [@](#): > > . I did find that unsettling too, being as he almost slept with her, and did not seem to find it that much of a problem. While I agree that pedophilia is damned nasty, I’d like to point out a couple of things. The moon (as written) is still a pioneer society, so babies are not only welcome but hoped for; and as soon as a girl hits puberty she’s fair game for joining the gene pool. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/26 "2001-08-15T23:33:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Epimetheus \* > \*\*That too, I suppose. In _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ he does seem to want to “spank her untill her bottom turns pink” the girl in question being 13. I did find that unsettling too, being as he almost slept with her, and did not seem to find it that much of a problem. Ick indeed. \*\* Considering that Heinlein was writing both about a different time (the far future) and by an author who grew up in a different time (a time when teen brides were relatively common), I don’t think it’s incredibly creepy unless you’re filtering it through the current (at least since the late 40’s) scenario of teenagers being sexless neuters who don’t start to be capable or desirous of sexual contact until they magically turn 18. Heinlein’s space colonies (or former colonies) were very much “frontier societies”. Like the old West, the colonial era in America, and other frontier societies, marriage and reproduction were events that happened in what we view as middle childhood. Not to mention that independence and maturity were traits that manifested early in life…or that life would be very short. I have no problem thinking that a 13-year-old Heinlein character was well aware of and ready for sexual relations. Heinlein’s political conservatism tends to overshadow his sexual liberality. Incest, hebephilia, polyamory and (in later novels) differing sexual orientations are portrayed in a pretty positive light. I’ve noticed, in actively reading within the poly community, that quite a large proportion of poly practitioners were inspired by Heinlein’s later novels to become poly in the first place. jayjay ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/27 "2001-08-15T23:35:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamadryad \* > \*\*While I agree that pedophilia is damned nasty, I’d like to point out a couple of things. The moon (as written) is still a pioneer society, so babies are not only welcome but hoped for; and as soon as a girl hits puberty she’s fair game for joining the gene pool. \*\* _salutes to Hama…simulposts are fun!_ jayjay ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/28 "2001-08-16T00:50:52Z")
On more than one occasion Heinlein waxed elegant and profuse in praise of his second wife Ginny (Virginia), declaring her to be far more intelligent than he. Isaac Asimov even said that she swayed Heinlein in his political views. Asimov described Virginia Heinlein as, IIRC, a “rock-ribbed, redheaded right-wing Republican.” I also read an article (forgot by whom) in which it was mentioned that, without fail, Robert Heinlein always rose when Ginny entered the room. The only reference I’ve ever read about Heinlein’s first wife, named Leslyn, is in a letter to his agent declaring something to the effect that once they are divorced, he (Heinlein) would be able to concentrate on writing without the depression caused by being married to her. As far as I know, Mrs. Heinlein is still alive, living in Florida. I alwasy got the impression she was ten-fifteen years younger than he. Sir Rhosis ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/29 "2001-08-16T04:22:03Z")
Heinlein was also not the only one to speak kindly of Ginny. In **Requiem** , nearly everyone made it a point to speak of how wonderful Ginny was to Heinlein. When RAH was too ill to complete a rewrite of _ **Stranger in a Strange Land** _, Ginny undertook the task, all the while caring for RAH. > [@](#): > > As for Heinlein’s characters in different books having the same mannerisms, well, that pops up a lot, and not just in Heinlein’s work. As I recall David Eddings seems to have a stable of about 2 dozen characters-- all he does is file off the names, get them to like different colours, and bam here’s a brand new fantasy world. I think even Heinlein makes a not-too subtle joke about this in _ **The Cat Who Walks Through Walls** _, where Dr. Ames is describing the writing process to Hazel, and mentions something about filing serial numbers off a story for later use. Much of Heinlein’s later stuff is of poor quality IMHO, but I think that this is because Heinlein knew he wasn’t going to be around much longer and wanted to crank out as many of the ideas he had before it was too late. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/30 "2001-08-16T09:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Much of Heinlein’s later stuff is of poor quality IMHO, but I think that this is because Heinlein knew he wasn’t going to be around much longer and wanted to crank out as many of the ideas he had before it was too late. I’ve always thought some of the later books could use a few more names during the dialogue, but are quite good regardless. But then again, I really liked The number of the Beast. And on the gripping hand, I’m biased because RAH and I have the same birthday. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/31 "2001-08-16T09:23:28Z")
I’ve read most of his books, as a teenager (too many years ago). I actually liked the movie version of _Starship Troopers_, as a modern critique of the novel. Lots of people hated it, but I don’t know that they saw it is a cynical interpretation of 1950s American sci-fi culture (land on a hostile planet and break out the gridiron footballs). I did, anyway (and besides it starred Denise Richards 😛 ). One thing I didn’t understand was how his writing changed from having a boys-own right wing Republican (_Starship Troopers_,\*Space Family Stone \*, and his earlier books), to hippy free-love Woodstock (_Stranger in a Strange Land_, _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, _Time Enough for Love_, even _Glory Road_, although a commune gets rough treatment for calling the hero a “mercenary”). I know I’m exaggerating a little bit, but I think he was seriously influenced by 60s culture. Certainly he had his own influence on the 60s - I’m told (born in '69 so I can’t remember) that “grok” entered slang parlance (even now, Curtin University in Western Australia has a student newspaper called “Grok”). In respect of his treatment of women, I have to admit I never noticed the “spanking” theme. I thought his heroines were terribly stereotyped, save perhaps for Friday. Each of them seemed to be Dejah Thoris, re-cast, something he seems to have recognised in _“The Number of the Beast”_. Damon Knight wrote an introduction for one of Heinlein’s anthologies, and remarked that the heroines **often** resembled Heinlein’s wife, a subtle criticism of stereotyping. One of the other things about _Friday_ is that it anticipates the internet, beating William Gibson’s _Neuromancer_ by a couple of years, from memory. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/32 "2001-08-16T09:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by a35362 \* > \*\*I haven’t read any Heinlein in a while, and his later books don’t appeal to me as much as his “juveniles,” but as I recall, he _always_ “put a woman on a pedestal so that he could look up her dress,” so to speak. Here he is, speaking of military officers and doctors, and then slipping in the female pronouns when we’re not looking, and then there he goes, _always_ commenting on what gorgeous, sexy, George Petty pinup babes all the women are. \*\* I have no _idea_ what you are talking about here. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Podkayne \* > \*\* > > And, on prettiness: “. . . real beauty is likely to scare a man off, or else make him quite unmanageable, whereas prettiness, properly handled, is an asset.” (Guess who said that!) \*\* You’re namesake of course, my dear, 😉 and may I say I am delighted to see that you are alive after all :). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/33 "2001-08-16T11:23:09Z")
> [@](#): > > One thing I didn’t understand was how his writing changed from having a boys-own right wing Republican (Starship Troopers,Space Family Stone , and his earlier books), to hippy free-love Woodstock (Stranger in a Strange Land, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Time Enough for Love, even Glory Road, although a commune gets rough treatment for calling the hero a “mercenary”). I know I’m exaggerating a little bit, but I think he was seriously influenced by 60s culture. Certainly he had his own influence on the 60s - I’m told (born in '69 so I can’t remember) that “grok” entered slang parlance (even now, Curtin University in Western Australia has a student newspaper called “Grok”). One thing Heinlein evidently hated was being pinned down by labels. I don’t think he was ever your stereotypical Republican. Later he didn’t turn into a stereotypical hippie. Heinlein was never a stereotypical anything. If you wanted a quick explanation of him, I’d say that he resembled a Libertarian more than anything – so far Right he’s Left. That explains his apparent right-wing military background as well as his apparent liberal social mores. Except, of course, that Heinlein wouldn’t be a stereotypical Libertarian, either. I’d heard that there was some interview he did where he kept subverting the interviewer’s expectations of Libertarian responses (I’d love to know where this is – I’ve never read it). ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/34 "2001-08-16T11:59:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \* > \*\*One thing I didn’t understand was how his writing changed from having a boys-own right wing Republican (_Starship Troopers_,\*Space Family Stone \*, and his earlier books), to hippy free-love Woodstock \*\* One of Heinlein’s 5 rules of writing is :keep it on the market until it sells. He always said that he was in the biz for the money-- his health being too poor to do any “real” work. So, as the expectations of the audience changed, he surfed the wave in order to keep selling. That said, I never thought Starship Troopers was very Republicano. The underlying theme of the book is a good idea (must serve others before being allowed to vote) which I’ve always thought of as being anti-Republican. But I’m a Canuck so what do I know. ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/35 "2001-08-16T14:06:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > \*\*Except, of course, that Heinlein wouldn’t be a stereotypical Libertarian, either. I’d heard that there was some interview he did where he kept subverting the interviewer’s expectations of Libertarian responses (I’d love to know where this is – I’ve never read it). \*\* Possibly the [interview with J. Neil Schulman](http://www.pulpless.com/0150.html) is what you’re thinking of? ---
**Author:** ![bauble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@bauble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bauble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/36 "2001-08-16T16:18:08Z")
On the Starship Troopers tangent: I’d thought that earth society in the story was supposed to be a parallel of ancient Spartan society (had to serve in the military before becoming a citizen; only full citizens were allowed to vote; war-based society; Earth/Spartan society considering themselves a democracy (they did have elections) and they were a lot closer to one than the only other society (the bugs) that they had contact with). I also seem to recall some similarities between Starship Troopers and the ‘300 Spartans’ story. But then it’s been a long time since I’ve read either and I may be off base here. bauble ---
**Author:** ![Sengkelat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Sengkelat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sengkelat)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/37 "2001-08-16T17:34:18Z")
I’d heard Heinlein used a computer to randomly generate descriptions of his female characters from a list of (bodacious) adjectives he supplied. Don’t know if there’s any truth to that. Back in the 60’s there seemed to be a lot of that “Women are just as good as men, if not better…but all they really want is to obey men and have babies” attitude in SF. (Heinlein and Harry Harrison are two that spring to mind) To me, it seems just as sexist as saying women aren’t as good as men. It’s almost like they’re intentionally subverting the feminist message. “Sure, you’re equal, but you should know your place.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sublight \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by rmariamp \* > > **And you do not remark upon his seeming fetish for freshly blooming 13 year olds??** > > No, no, you’re looking for the Piers Anthony thread, two doors down.\*\* And here I was thinking it was the Leo Frankowski aisle you should be looking for, with his execrable _Cross Time Engineer_ series. Amazingly icky. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/38 "2001-08-16T18:02:16Z")
Allow me to introduce: “Robert A Heinlein: A Readers Companion” by James Gifford. A truly excellent overview of all Heinleins writing along with commentary from Gifford from the Heinlein archives at UC-Santa Cruz (I think, I’m working from memory here). It literally lists EVERYTHING he every wrote under any pen name as well as background information on each book and story. In addition, each item is listed with when and where it appeared in print. Other biographical details are also included as well. It took [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) about 3 months to get it to me as the publisher, Nitrosyncretic Press appears not to be the most responsive firm in the world. But when I got it I absolutely devoured it. Worth it. Trust me. There are no bigger Heinlein fans in the world than me (we’re all tied) and I hadn’t been this pleased with a book in years. ---
**Author:** ![Vestal\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Vestal\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vestal_Blue)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/39 "2001-08-16T20:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Barbarian \* > \*\*As for Heinlein’s characters in different books having the same mannerisms, well, that pops up a lot, and not just in Heinlein’s work… \*\* Try Louis L’Amour, my other favourite author; His main characters are all cut from the same mold. Sigh. 1988 was a dark year. As for the beating stuff, It’s harmless patter. I’ve never laid a hand on Mrs. Blue in 19 years of marriage. Every year on my birthday (I’m 2 months older) she threatens to buy me a cane, and I threaten to beat her with it. Still no cane! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Vestal\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Vestal\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vestal_Blue)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314/40 "2001-08-16T21:03:44Z")
I have an illustrated edition of Number of The Beast, bought in England, no other copy of which I’ve seen since returning stateside. He kindly sent me his autograph on a label, which is now in that book. Also I can attest to Virginias’ grace and warmth, as evidenced by a letter she wrote to me in response to one I wrote to Robert. As far as I know, she answered all his fan letters. I remember picking up a copy of To Sail Beyond The Sunset and feeling apprehensive about the title, and then learning that he had indeed passed away not too long before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-observation-about-heinlein/76314.md?page=3)