# My Pet Goat reading
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 27, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279 "2013-08-27T04:35:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/61 "2013-08-28T20:37:29Z")
Perhaps you don’t remember that morning.
Nobody failed to grasp that there was a coordinated attack underway when the second plane hit the tower.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/62 "2013-08-28T20:43:06Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#):
>
> Perhaps you don’t remember that morning.
>
> Nobody failed to grasp that there was a coordinated attack underway when the second plane hit the tower.
I remember that morning very vividly - I saw the 2nd plane hit live - I remember starting to wonder exactly what was going on, it certainly appeared that it was 'more than an accident - but ‘knowing’ it was an attack, much less by ‘whom’ is an entirely different thing. All of these events happened fast enough that ‘firm knowledge’ could only be achieved in hindsight as more details came in - when the third plane hit the Pentagon - there was no doubt left.
What I don’t recall is specific details about who said waht when - and even now reviewing the link with the timeline - I still don’t ‘fault’ Bush for how he handled that 5 minutes - it was how he felt the need to handle it - knowing now that he was specifically told “we’re under attack” I think he SHOULD have handled it differntly.
But that does not change what would have been ‘different’ had he left the room at that exact moment (or the bullshit in the OP of “watched the USA burn”).
ETA - we will not ever know exactly what went thru his mind ‘at that moment’ - I suspect like many others, it was a bit of disbelieving shock (given that not 20 minutesish earlier he had been told a small plane had hit the other tower) - and a bit of trust to finish one last peaceful thing before heading off into ‘war’. There is alot of reasons to do exactly what he did - and plenty of reasons to do it differently.
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/63 "2013-08-28T21:02:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> :rolleyes:
>
> The president does not gather information and, unless he has loaded his administration, (and the military and the FBI and The CIA and the NSA, etc.), with utterly incompetent fools, he has no need to explain to his staff what information to gather. When I see someone making a big deal about seven entire minutes reading a prepared text to a gathered audience, I have to conclude that the attackers are so utterly partisan that they would condemn Bush for curing cancer.
That’s just ridiculous. Bush did bazillions of things during his presidency that I’ve never remotely pitted him for. I’ve occasionally even praised him.
What is utterly clear to me, though, is that no president of any party knows everything about every issue at all times. So if you’re president and then, say, there’s an explosion in Chicago that may or may not be a nuclear detonation but was obviously massive, and there’s very little information right now but it will be trickling in over the minutes and hours to come, do you just say “ok, well, we don’t know anything yet, my advisers will alert me when it’s time for me to start actually thinking and acting, for now I’ll go back to doing something irrelevant”, or do you start refreshing yourself on everything that IS known about all the relevant agencies, contingencies, possibilities, etc? Even if no decision can possibly be made until 15 minutes from now when the nuke-or-not-a-nuke report comes in, you want to be fully brushed up on all the relevant agencies, protocols, etc., so that when the information DOES come in you can make a good decision as fast as possible.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/64 "2013-08-28T21:43:18Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> That’s just ridiculous. Bush did bazillions of things during his presidency that I’ve never remotely pitted him for. I’ve occasionally even praised him.
So? In your case it is simply Recreational Outrage instead of extreme partisanship. Duly noted.
The president is not a superhero who has to leap out of the room at blinding speed to intercept the meteor that is fifteen seconds away from destroying all life on Earth.
The short time needed to complete reading a kid’s book and leave is simply not going to make a difference. Not in hindsight and not with the limited information he had, then. While you prefer to characterize the event as Bush putting off “thinking about it” for seven minutes, my presumption is that he was given all the information available at the time–almost none–and chose to not run out of the room in a panic.
Enjoy your RO. It is still over the top.
(Poor **georgewk10** : he came in here hoping to get a good blast of Conspiracy Theory and he wound up with people bickering over whether taking a couple of minutes to leave a photo op, peacefully, should be considered an error of catastrophic proportions.)
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### Author:  [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/65 "2013-08-28T22:33:52Z")
The guy choked. He was the leader of the country, not leading, for seven minutes. As I said, it probably made no difference, but there’s no way he could have known that. He needed to return to the office and do his job as quickly as possible. He didn’t know how much more information was available, because he didn’t ask.
I’d probably have choked too, but I’d have the guts to admit it.
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### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/66 "2013-08-28T22:48:15Z")
> [@Learjeff](#):
>
> The guy choked.
Absolutely, he choked. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people keep making up excuses for him.
The appropriate response would have been to say “Sorry, kids. Something important has come up.” And then calmly leave the room to find out what was going on.
Sure, with 20/20 hindsight we can say that nothing Bush did in those 7 minutes would have changed anything in the slightest. But that’s information that Bush didn’t have at the time. For all he knew, every minute was crucial. That why the responsible thing to do when he learned about the attack was to cut his classroom photo op short and go do his job.
It was a small test of leadership and character that he failed dramatically.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/67 "2013-08-29T00:19:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> Poor **georgewk10** : he came in here hoping to get a good blast of Conspiracy Theory and he wound up with people bickering over whether taking a couple of minutes to leave a photo op, peacefully, should be considered an error of catastrophic proportions.
I resent this. I, for one, posted both bickering and a conspiracy theory.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/68 "2013-08-29T01:07:20Z")
> [@simster](#):
>
> ETA - we will not ever know exactly what went thru his mind ‘at that moment’ - I suspect like many others, it was a bit of disbelieving shock (given that not 20 minutesish earlier he had been told a small plane had hit the other tower) - and a bit of trust to finish one last peaceful thing before heading off into ‘war’. There is alot of reasons to do exactly what he did - and plenty of reasons to do it differently.
It’s essentially impossible for an airliner to have accidentally crashed into one of the towers, so they would have been nearly certain that the first was intentional. When the second hit, it would have obviously been coordinated.
Probably one of the first things that went through his mind should have been that less than five weeks prior, he was briefed on al Queda planning attacks in the US.
The romanticized idea of Bush enjoying one last peaceful thing before heading off to war is a bigger steaming pile of bullshit than the “don’t panic the children” pile of bullshit.
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### Author:  [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/69 "2013-08-29T01:11:05Z")
Nobody knew it was an airliner at first - I was listening to radio reports shortly after it happened and some people speculated it was something as small as a twin-prop or even a helicopter - Manhattan was (back then) surrounded by tourist planes and choppers most any day of the week. It wasn’t until the second strike that people started to realize it was something more.
Nice try though.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/70 "2013-08-29T01:16:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> –and chose to not run out of the room in a panic.
>
> Enjoy your RO. It is still over the top.
Your insistence on repeating this as if it was his only alternative is actually what is over the top.
Please understand this - there is more than one way to leave a room. Try it sometime. If you cannot think of another way to leave a room than in a panic, we can set up a webcast to demonstrate it for you.
Also, as per many sources, such as [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/politics/22CND-FLIG.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/politics/22CND-FLIG.html), Flight 93 was texted this message at 9:23 a.m.: “Beware any cockpit intrusion two a/c hit World Trade Center.” They responded at 9:26 “Ed, confirm latest mssg plz Jason.”
They would have benefited from 7 more minutes notice. Perhaps a more complete message would have informed them in a way that they could have prepared and could have known that the threat of a bomb was not the concern they needed to attend to.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/71 "2013-08-29T01:18:17Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#):
>
> This is nuts. The response was completely inappropriate. We only know he couldn’t have done more in retrospect. What if he had to authorize the air force to shoot down more planes, or take some other action? He should’ve been immediately pulled to safety and put onto a conference call with the relevant people.
>
> Saying “Mr. President, we need to leave now” and quickly leaving is not going to traumatize those kids, and the idea that the commander in chief should prioritize not upsetting a group of schoolkids over responding to an unknown attack on his country is ridiculous.
>
> There is no justification for Bush not immediately giving his full attention information about the attack. I don’t feel like he ever got the full brunt of criticism for this incident - both because the OMG 9/11 WAS A HOLY DAY OF VICTIMHOOD idiots would never dare criticize anything related to 9/11, or because it was basically taken ownership by conspiracy theorists… but that whole incident is utterly baffling and shows a complete lack of judgment and leadership.
QFT. If anything, this episode is a refutation of the conspiracy theories, as are the weak responses with poor staging that occurred later in the day. If there was a conspiracy, Dubya was not in on it, and nor were the people who plan his schedule and set up for his speeches and such. If he had been visiting a military base, and jumped up and started barking orders, then we could be suspicious.
But yeah, getting back to what you said: this is actually a bigger deal than most people make it out to be. Seven minutes is a LONG time in the nuclear age. Supposedly all he was told was “the nation is under attack”. How did he know there weren’t ICBMs bearing down? Even if he didn’t, the Secret Service also fell down on the job by not immediately getting him to safety. The school should have been evacuated as well, for the sake of the children, teachers, and staff. This is not 20/20 hindsight, this is basic, obvious stuff.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/72 "2013-08-29T01:22:44Z")
> [@Werekoala](#):
>
> Nobody knew it was an airliner at first - I was listening to radio reports shortly after it happened and some people speculated it was something as small as a twin-prop or even a helicopter - Manhattan was (back then) surrounded by tourist planes and choppers most any day of the week. It wasn’t until the second strike that people started to realize it was something more.
>
> Nice try though.
> **[Timeline for the day of the September 11 attacks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_for_the_day_of_the_September_11_attacks)**
>
> The September 11 attacks of 2001, in addition to being a unique act of terrorism, constituted a media event on a scale not seen since the advent of civilian global satellite links. Instant worldwide reaction and debate were made possible by round-the-clock television news organizations and by the internet. As a result, most of the events listed below were known by a large portion of the world's population as they occurred.
> The attacks themselves lasted less than two hours; the first hijacking ...
> [@](#):
>
> Before entering the classroom, the President speaks to National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, who is at the White House. She first tells him it was a twin-engine aircraft— **and then a commercial aircraft** —that had struck the World Trade Center, adding “that’s all we know right now, Mr. President.”
Gee, the President had access to more information than you? Shocker!
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### Author:  [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/73 "2013-08-29T01:33:01Z")
A “_ **small** _, twin engine aircraft”, per your “quote” which is what I said witnesses in NYC were saying at first. And we all know that the only “commercial aircraft” are 757s.
Keep digging.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/74 "2013-08-29T01:47:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> When I see someone making a big deal about seven entire minutes reading a prepared text to a gathered audience, I have to conclude that the attackers are so utterly partisan that they would condemn Bush for curing cancer.
This is just amazing to me. It sounds like Orwellian doublespeak: night is day, up is down, etc. You are a conservative, so not only do you defend this Republican president, you insist that by our criticising this action, we are doing precisely what we see you as doing: twisting into a partisan pretzel to argue the inarguable. It’s just…wow.
And I would add btw just for background that I don’t claim everything Bush ever did was incompetent or malign. That whole day, he did fairly poorly (the speech from the Oval at the end of the day was better, at least, than his brief statements from the Air Force base, but it still was not so great and you should never call terrorists “folks”). But the speech to a joint session of Congress a week later was pretty good. And the moment when he stood atop the rubble to say “I hear you, the American people hear you” etc. was brilliant. Right up there with “fear itself” et al in the pantheon of great presidential speechifying.
During those seven early minutes though, he was on the opposite end of the spectrum. And I agree that John McCain would not have done that. Neither would Romney or even Gingrich. Reagan might have if Nancy weren’t around to spur him into action.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/75 "2013-08-29T01:53:57Z")
> [@Werekoala](#):
>
> A “_ **small** _, twin engine aircraft”, per your “quote” which is what I said witnesses in NYC were saying at first. And we all know that the only “commercial aircraft” are 757s.
>
> Keep digging.
I’m not the one digging, since you’re selectively quoting the non-relevant portion of what I quoted.
You seem to be confused about whether the discussion is what Bush was thinking or what you were thinking. I have no idea what you were thinking. I do know that Bush was told it was a commercial aircraft prior to entering the classroom.
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### Author:  [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/76 "2013-08-29T02:05:05Z")
Non-relevant portion (otherwise known as the whole portion) quoted for those following along at home;
_8:55: President George W. Bush is at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida as part of a scheduled visit to promote education when White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card, who is with Bush, informs him that a_\*\* small twin-engine plane\*\*\* has crashed into the World Trade Center. Before entering the classroom, _ **the President speaks** _ to National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, who is at the White House. She first tells him it was a\*\*\* twin-engine aircraft\*\*\*—and then a commercial aircraft—that had struck the World Trade Center, adding “that’s all we know right now, Mr. President.”[13]\*
A small twin-engine plane - which is what I said I heard during the live, eye-witness, man on the street interviews on the radio. At that point, yes - I did have exactly as much information about what was going on as the President.
Then, a twin engine aircraft - could be anything from a Beechcraft to a B-25 to an MD-80 or (as it turned out) a 757. Commercial. Could be a freight flight. Could be a commuter flight. Could be anything.
Oh wait, the President speaks directly to his National Security Advisor? Seems odd behavior for someone who was out of the loop and paralyzed with indecision, doesn’t it?
You’re trying to make it sound like he was told a hijacked 757 hit the towers instantly, instead of uncertainty which was actually the case. Are you invested in trying to make things look bad for Bush?
Oh, what am I saying - of course you are.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/77 "2013-08-29T02:06:59Z")
> [@simster](#):
>
> We simply did not know that “we were under attack” at that moment.
From an [interview](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/32782623/ns/us_news-9_11_eight_years_later/t/he-told-bush-america-under-attack/#.Uh6onRvOkpg) with chief of staff Andy Card (emphases mine):
> [@](#):
>
> And the president, the principal of the school and I were standing at the door when one of the staffers for the National Security Council came up and said, “Sir, it appears there’s been a small twin-engine plane crashed into one of the World Trade Center towers in New York City.” And the reaction, kind of unspoken, was “Oh, it’s a horrible accident. The pilot must have had a heart attack or something.” And the principal then opened the door of the classroom and escorted the president in and the door shut.
> Then that staffer came back to me and said, **“Sir, it looks like it wasn’t a small twin-engine plane, it was a commercial jetliner.** My mind flashed (pauses) and I can’t explain why, but my mind flashed to the fear that must have been experienced by the passengers on the plane. I just thought “Gee, they must have known the plane is going up, it must have been a horrible experience.” I still thought, I guess, that it could have been an accident, a mechanical failure or something.
> And then — it seems like a nanosecond later — **that staffer came to me and said, “Oh my gosh” — he used another word — and said another plane hit the other tower at the World Trade Center. And I knew that it was not an accident, and it couldn’t have been a coincidence.**
> My mind focused on the al-Qaida network, because I knew that they had attacked the World Trade Center before. I don’t know why I thought that but I did and **I just presumed that it was an Osama bin Laden or and al-Qaida attack, and I knew I had to tell the president.**
> I wrestled with that. You know, one of the tough jobs for the chief of staff is to try to decide what to tell the president needs to know. This was relatively easy — yes, the president needs to know. But what do I tell him?
> **I made the decision that I would pass on two facts, make one editorial comment and do nothing to invite a question or start a dialogue.**
> I opened the door to the classroom and the press pool was gathered at the back of the classroom. I walked up to the president and leaned over and whispered into his right ear: “A second plane” — **I was very very succinct, very purposeful with my diction — “A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack.” And I stood back from the president so that he couldn’t ask me a question** and then I inched my way back to the door. I was all business. I was all business.
So there goes that assertion (though admittedly since it wasn’t just “America is under attack”, that also tends to remove the ICBM possibility I brought up before). After this point, the Pentagon was hit, and either the Capitol or the White House was supposed to be hit, so the school could well have been a target with only minutes to act for all they knew.
This interview does open up a huge tangential question. WTF was Card’s rationale for preventing Bush from being able to ask a question? Why in the world would the reporter not follow up on this odd statement?
And let’s say we can even come up with some sensible reason why Card would not want a “dialogue” to open up. The fact then remains that he is openly admitting, essentially, that he treated his boss, the president, like a child or a mentally disabled person. If there was some reason why it would be inappropriate for any questions to be asked at that moment, he has no faith in Bush’s ability to understand that, so he has to stand back and “inch” his way back to the door. Good lord.
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### Author:  [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/78 "2013-08-29T02:07:22Z")
The single most important job of the President of the US is to respond immediately to a potential nuclear attack on the US. That shit is incredibly important. They drill for it. They have support staff with him at all times to facilitate this. It is the absolute top priority and requirement of the presidency - the president has to be able to snap into a leadership role in the middle of a crisis at a moment’s notice.
Now 9/11 isn’t an ICBM attack, but it is the biggest attack on American soil in decades. It doesn’t rate all the importance of a nuclear attack, certainly, but it is similar enough that a president freezing up and failing to take immediate leadership or at least inform himself as best as possible is grossly negligent.
Basically, having him snap immediately into a leadership role and gathering information is the #1 priority he has as president. It’s the most important, and most time-critical role he performs for the American people. He just flat out fucked it up here. A gross negligence and failure of duty to the most important job he has. The excuses offered up for him are ridiculous. Not scaring the kids has been beaten to death, but the only other excuse seems to be “well, I might freeze up in that situation too, I wouldn’t know what to do, so it’s okay if he doesn’t” is just as weak. This is his job, this is his most important duty, this is what he runs drills for, this is why he always has access to a ridiculously comprehensive suite of communications, emergency support staff, and multiple types of crisis management centers at his disposal.
This sort of situation is his most important job, and he utterly failed to do it in the moments immediately after a crisis began.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/79 "2013-08-29T02:37:23Z")
I wonder what GWB’s advisors thought after the chief of staff walked into the classroom and told him. Did they think; “Why the hell isn’t he cutting it short in there and getting out?” Or did they not think much of it?
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-pet-goat-reading/667279/80 "2013-08-29T02:47:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#):
>
> Also, as per many sources, such as [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/politics/22CND-FLIG.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/politics/22CND-FLIG.html), Flight 93 was texted this message at 9:23 a.m.: “Beware any cockpit intrusion two a/c hit World Trade Center.” They responded at 9:26 “Ed, confirm latest mssg plz Jason.”
Look, I disagree with tomndebb about his actions being a mistake, but I can’t figure out why you think this factoid has anything to do with the discussion. Bush wasn’t the person who texted the message to Flight 93, and I doubt anything he did was in the chain of actions that led to it.
Can you explain why you think it’s relevant?
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