# My problem with Liberals... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305 "2009-05-22T16:21:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/21 "2009-05-22T18:07:43Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I think this is a big one for me. The idea that if people aren’t getting what they need, we need to turn to the government immediately does not sit well with me. I do not think it is a choice between get the government involved, or allow the problems to persist. I think a third option is to raise public awareness of the issue and give people some time to work on private solutions to the problem. Maybe the government could get involved in raising awareness of the issue, but they don’t need to immediately jump in head first without giving us a chance to figure things out on our own. You mentioned trying to convince people to feed the poor. Well, Christianity has tried this for 2,000 years (and did feed a bunch) but the poor still starved. We have to be realistic about what people will actually do. Why is regulation needed? Because it is in the short term interests of people to do things (like offer and takeout subprime mortgages you can’t afford) that in the long term will screw society. Look at Alan Greenspan, being shocked that Wall Street execs would be greedy. There are some conservatives who are conservative out of greed, but there are plenty who are conservative because they have a starry-eyed view of people and society, a view that if you just let people be free they will do the right thing - feed the poor, only ask for as much healthcare as absolutely necessary, not pollute. Yeah, and if people took only what they needed true communism would work also. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/22 "2009-05-22T18:07:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This is the most trivial part of his point. Of course I didn’t expect this to go any differently. All people care about is the trivial hypocrisy and not a person’s argument. That’s why partisan discussions are so tedious. > > It’s amazing how many people don’t get beyond, ‘You do it too!’, by the time they are like 15. It’s not the most trivial part at all, and nor am i merely interested in “You do it too!” It’s not trivial precisely because his whole critique is based on the idea that liberal support of government is somehow endemic to liberals alone, that it is only liberals who suffer from a penchant for government intervention, and only liberals who fail to see the inconsistencies in their position. The OP makes the following statement: > [@](#): > > Republicans are a part of government, so even if you blame all of our problems on republican policies, you really have not addressed my point that we would be better off with less government involvement since republicans, and their policies, are part of the government. It seems to me that this position, rather typically of unreflective small-government mantras, has a pretty large excluded middle. The OP thinks it’s a choice between bad government and much less government. Nowhere in his formulation is there room for _better_ government. And that is why, contrary to the OP’s position, the liberal position is not somehow inherently contradictory or unworkable—precisely because liberals believe that government, while not always a perfect solution, is often a better solution than _laissez faire_ free-for-all, and that even if the way government currently operates is imperfect, it can be improved. For this reason, given his admitted libertarian bent, i’m not sure why the OP is more interested in taking liberals to task for trying to make their vision work than he is in taking conservatives to task for making rhetorial claims about small government but actually implementing big government. > [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I do not want big government from liberals or conservatives. And believe me, I am not a republican supporter. In fact i even said that if forced to choose between the two parties I would go democrat. Amongst the circle that I run in, the liberal people I know always jump to government involvement right away. You are correct though, I could pretty much reverse my OP, but my point still stands: > > Whether you are Dem or Pub, you only want the government to be involved when it is your party in power. That is why I think it is funny to ever advocate for government involvement because your party will never always be in power. But don’t you understand? Liberals recognize that, even when Republicans are in power, the effect of countervailing interests means that government can, and does, continue to implement programs that redound to the benefit of Americans. Even the worst hypocrite in the world, a guy like George Bush, who did his best to expand government in some areas while trying to completely eviscerate it in others, was not able to bring down whole edifice of useful programs and functions that the federal government oversees. The American government is an ongoing institution, and if even a jackass like George Bush can’t ruin the country completely, that says something for the stability of its institutions and policies. Those policies are not always good. Plenty are downright awful. But, as the situation stands, in a large and complex society like the United States, the government is the least-worst option for many things. Removing government would, in many areas, replace public tyranny with private tyrannies, and at least government is legally and nominally responsible to the American people. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/23 "2009-05-22T18:08:06Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > Liberal people, in general (obviously not everyone), seem to want the government to do more, and be more involved in our day to day lives > [@Hamlet](#): > > My problem with Conservativese > > Conservative people, in general (obviously not everyone), seem to want the government to do more, and be more involved in our day to day lives. The problem is that you are both right. Each side wants the government doing more to enforce their ideologies in our daily lives. Each seems to want to take away people’s rights to make decisions based on what’s best for them and instead have it legislated to them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/24 "2009-05-22T18:08:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Mach Tuck** I can accept the FAA, but I am far more skeptical about education. Considering that the alternative is to have huge numbers of people with no education at all, or worse than no education it’s doing well. People often talk as if the alternative to public school is that everyone gets enrolled in a top flight private school. And not just left ignorant, or some “school” run by scam artists that take the parent’s money and run. Or some Christian fundie school that teaches nothing except religion. > [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I guess I should say Federal government involvement. I think giving more power to state and local governments would be a step in the right direction. As I said in a post above, I think the people have become more divided as a result of Federal government actions. I think scaling it down a bit would help get everyone on the same path while giving people more direct control over their lives. In other words, we should go back in the direction that led to the Civil War. No thanks. And I don’t think that we have become “more divided by federal actions” anyway. > [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I am not. Times change. It was harder to raise awareness of social issues back in the day. So maybe government involvement was necessary then, but I do not think it needs to continue. Not only does it need to continue, it needs to increase. If we went your way, you’d see large scale starvation. People have plenty of awareness of social issues; they simply don’t care all that much. > [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > 1. I think people should feel a sense of personal responsibility to take care of one another. having the government do it strips people of that responsibility. Sure, you can still help in other ways, but you will never be fully responsible. Wrong; the government is how people have collectively chosen to do so. And it’s more efficient and effective that way. > [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > 1. Forcing people to help with social problems by making them pay taxes might help the problem (though that is debatable), but it doesn’t help the bigger issue, which is that people should want to help other people, not be forced to. The government treats the symptoms of problems, not the problems themselves. It is sort of like if you force a kid to say “thank you”, or “I am sorry”, without them ever understanding why. The government is the solution that works; letting people starve by the millions in a doomed attempt to shame their neighbors into becoming more altruistic is unethical and unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/25 "2009-05-22T18:12:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Considering that the alternative is to have huge numbers of people with no education at all, or worse than no education it’s doing well. People often talk as if the alternative to public school is that everyone gets enrolled in a top flight private school. And not just left ignorant, or some “school” run by scam artists that take the parent’s money and run. Or some Christian fundie school that teaches nothing except religion. A lack of a superior universal alternative does not mean that it’s done well, and many Christian schools are head and shoulders above your average public school in terms of academics. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/26 "2009-05-22T18:13:11Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > It’s not the most trivial part at all, and nor am i merely interested in “You do it too!” > > It’s not trivial precisely because his whole critique is based on the idea that liberal support of government is somehow endemic to liberals alone, that it is only liberals who suffer from a penchant for government intervention, and only liberals who fail to see the inconsistencies in their position. Right, he pointed out in his OP that Republicans do it too, so why the need to keep talking about it? This thread isn’t about problems with Conservatism, it’s about problems with liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/27 "2009-05-22T18:21:04Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > Liberal people, in general (obviously not everyone), seem to want the government to do more, and be more involved in our day to day lives. Speaking as a liberal, the government in a liberal democratic society isn’t some disembodied alien entity. It’s us, acting together. When we say we want the government to do something, we’re saying that this is a problem big enough that we should all get together to do something about. And we don’t want “more government involvement in our lives.” We want more government action on _public_ issues. We want less government involvement “in our lives.” > [@](#): > > If I bring up how government, at least the federal government, doesn’t seem to do much right You can say the same thing about non-government action. That’s no reason not to try to do something. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/28 "2009-05-22T18:26:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > So you agree with **Hamlet** ’s argument that conservatives want big government just as much as liberals do (although for different things), and yet you started a thread criticizing only liberals for wanting big government. Interesting. I think the real reason we get big government under Republican administrations is that no matter how much they rant about it, their constituents tell them that getting money from Washington works pretty well for them. A Congressman who turns down money for his district isn’t going to be there very long. Most of the Republican governors who made a big show of rejecting stimulus money knew quite well that their legislatures would overrule them. This is yet another case where conservatism is unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/29 "2009-05-22T18:27:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > A lack of a superior universal alternative does not mean that it’s done well, and many Christian schools are head and shoulders above your average public school in terms of academics. And some are much worse. Eliminate public schools, and it’s the latter - the ones that care about making you memorize religious slogans, bigotry, and teaching you how to be good at pushing Christianity, and little else - which I would expect to expand and take over “education”. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/30 "2009-05-22T18:28:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And some are much worse. Eliminate public schools, and it’s the latter - the ones that care about making you memorize religious slogans, bigotry, and teaching you how to be good at pushing Christianity, and little else - which I would expect to expand and take over “education”. Nonsense. Why would people who are not Christian fundamentalists send their kids to Christian fundamentalist schools? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/31 "2009-05-22T18:30:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right, he pointed out in his OP that Republicans do it too, so why the need to keep talking about it? This thread isn’t about problems with Conservatism, it’s about problems with liberalism. He pointed out in the OP that Republicans do it too? I just went back and re-read the OP. I must have missed that bit. Could you point it out for me? And the main premise of the OP, regarding liberalism, is factually incorrect, to wit: > [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > Basically it boils down to this - Liberals want more government involvement, but only if it comes from a Democratic administration, but given our two party system, the Republicans are not going anywhere, so that is not a realistic option. This is wrong on a number of levels. Liberals don’t simply want more for the sake of more. Hell, some liberals don’t even want more. What many liberals want is better government that addresses the needs of the American people, and many liberals believe that, with the right will and the right people, this is an achievable goal. Furthermore, i, and many liberals i know, would be quite happy to have government take less of a role in certain areas, IF it could be reasonably demonstrated that this would be for the general benefit. And while there are some liberals who will apparently accept any half-assed policy as long as it issues from the lips of a Democratic lawmaker, there are also many who are just as critical of Democratic politicians, and who are happy to criticize any and all government perfidy. Plenty of liberals have opposed some of the recent government bailouts, even the ones backed by Barack Obama and Democratic members of Congress. Finally, the fact is that there are some areas where government is always going to be involved (for example, defense, foreign policy, etc.), and where the differences between the two major parties are significant enough that there are real consequences. The fact that liberals choose Democrats over Republicans in such situations is not evidence of some failure of imagination, or some blindness to the overall problems of government. It’s simply a reflection of the fact that liberals, like conservatives, vote their interests. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/32 "2009-05-22T18:30:52Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I am not sure what i think about this. In one sense I agree…if we are going to have government involvement i would like it to be controlled by the people. Take a look at the thread on the recent California initiative now in the Pit. California is going down the crapper because we have a lot more control by the people (through initiatives) than most states. The people are doing a much worse job than the career politicians did. The people hate taxes, but they love prisons, education, and health care, the three biggest budget items. Almost all the growth in spending above inflation in the past decade have come from initiatives. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/33 "2009-05-22T18:33:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Nonsense. Why would people who are not Christian fundamentalists send their kids to Christian fundamentalist schools? Desperation, when the others are all gone or unaffordable. Or because they were lied to about what it was. ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/34 "2009-05-22T18:34:23Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Speaking as a liberal, the government in a liberal democratic society isn’t some disembodied alien entity. It’s us, acting together. When we say we want the government to do something, we’re saying that this is a problem big enough that we should all get together to do something about. Yes. So, were you in favor of the patriot act, invading Iraq, torture? I guess what i am saying is that government supposedly speaks for all of us, but the country is so close to a 50/50 split that in reality it barely speaks for 1/2 of us 1/2 of the time. Not to mention people like myself who would rather see less government involvement…we have no consideration because there is no way the government is ceding power that it has already grabbed. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/35 "2009-05-22T18:35:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Desperation, when the others are all gone or unaffordable. Or because they were lied to about what it was. That’s a silly scenario. You give Christian fundies way too much credit for having magical powers to dominate a particular market. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/36 "2009-05-22T18:36:01Z")
I have a problem with the whole liberal/conservative labelling. If you are one or the other, for some unknown reason you are expected to keep to the “party line” on all of it. Why? This makes no sense. There’s no sin in adhering to the parts from either side that you believe in and discarding the rest. Neither side is necessarily completely right or completely wrong (if and when both sides throw off the loonies and extremists). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/37 "2009-05-22T18:38:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That’s a silly scenario. You give Christian fundies way too much credit for having magical powers to dominate a particular market. They don’t need magical powers, just a willingness to take a financial loss. Which they would, since the goal is to produce converts not make money. ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/38 "2009-05-22T18:38:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Take a look at the thread on the recent California initiative now in the Pit. California is going down the crapper because we have a lot more control by the people (through initiatives) than most states. The people are doing a much worse job than the career politicians did. The people hate taxes, but they love prisons, education, and health care, the three biggest budget items. Almost all the growth in spending above inflation in the past decade have come from initiatives. I hear ya, but they are also going down the crapper in the context of the Federal system we have now. For example, if CA citizens could vote to legalize marijuana, the state would need less money for prisons and could make money from taxes on weed to help pay for education. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/39 "2009-05-22T18:39:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > A lack of a superior universal alternative does not mean that it’s done well, and many Christian schools are head and shoulders above your average public school in terms of academics. Is the average Christian school better than the average public school, given the same conditions? (i.e., can’t Christian schools kick people out for any reason or some shit like that?) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305/40 "2009-05-22T18:43:09Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I hear ya, but they are also going down the crapper in the context of the Federal system we have now. For example, if CA citizens could vote to legalize marijuana, the state would need less money for prisons and could make money from taxes on weed to help pay for education. That’s an example of the big government in the restrictive rules sense. Annoying, but relatively cheap. Along this line, the DoJ has now announced it is going to stop spending money harassing the sellers of medical marijuana, which is legal under state law. If California passes a decriminalization bill, which is getting some support, we’ll see what happens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-problem-with-liberals/497305.md?page=3)