# My question for John Kerry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465 "2004-10-10T13:15:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/21 "2004-10-10T16:03:20Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > But, according to John Kerry’s worldview, wouldn’t the arrest and incarceration of a country’s leader require the passing of a “global test”? Let’s look at what Kerry actually said about this “global test”. > [@](#): > > But if and when you [wage preemptive war], Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you’re doing what you’re doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons. Note that arresting and trying a head of state is not the same thing as preemptive war (although it may _require_ a preemptive war to make it possible). Thus the arrest itself would not have to pass this “global test”. Besides, it’s pretty clear that Kerry meant for this “global test” to be a sort of rule of thumb, not hard and fast guidelines. I took it to mean, basically, “If you wage preemptive war, you should do it in such a way that everyone knows _why_ you’re doing it, and the international community more-or-less agrees that your actions are not completely out of line.” If a large number of our allies tell us that waging a preemptive war against a country isn’t such a good idea, maybe we should step back and reexamine things. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/22 "2004-10-10T16:47:30Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > And an equally stupid answer. Because a President doesn’t like a country’s regime, then it’s okay to invade, then arrest and incarcerate that country’s leader? That’s a question that should be directed to Bush, not Kerry. Furthermore, as others have pointed out, Hussein is being held by a (theoretically) independent, sovereign Iraqi government, and the POTUS would have no authority to order his release. And he is charged with crimes that have nothing to do with the Coalition’s purported reasons for invading Iraq. The question of the OP is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/23 "2004-10-10T16:48:05Z")
OK, **Razorsharp** , you got us. We might as well 'fess up, there’s no fooling you. Kerry’s plan was to cede Puerto Rico to Saddam in return for a Promise to Be Good and Not Take Our Lunch Money Any More. Assuming that it’s OK with France, of course. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/24 "2004-10-10T18:02:55Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > But, according to John Kerry’s worldview, wouldn’t the arrest and incarceration of a country’s leader require the passing of a “global test”? I’ve not kept up w/ Kerry too closely, so I may be mistaken; however, AFAICT, the “global test” remark was meant to reference the ‘L’ word- legitimacy. Legitimacy is a large factor in what made the difference between the situations post WWII in Germany and Japan and the current situation in Iraq. In WWII we had legitimacy. This meant that people (citizens of these countries as well as citizens, governments and importantly investors of other countries) were more willing to cooperate with the efforts to rebuild the countries. Legitmacy cannot be won by force of arms, nor can it be purchased. You either have it or you don’t. One of the telling aspects of the lack of sufficient leguitmacy in Iraq is the grave reluctance of major non-Iraqi investors to risk funds in Iraq. The practical and pragmatic aspects of legitimacy are that legitimacy makes these sorts of things go more smoothly. Smoothly means less cost in terms of money and less cost in terms of effort, and less bloodshed. Those who’re short sighted enough to claim that diplomacy is merely “window dresing on realpolitik” ignore the realpolitik of diplomacy. The ability to motivate people to take desired actions is a powerful realpoilitik effect of the the so-called “window-dressing” that reduces the quantity and quality of resources that must be devoted to an enterprise. I expect you’ll choose to ignore this post. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/25 "2004-10-10T18:38:43Z")
Very nicely put, **SimonX**. Likely to fall on deaf ears, as you note, but very well-put nonetheless. I still don’t get what the OP is even getting at. Does he believe that there is (or that Kerry believes there is) an international equivalent of the sort of rights by which if the police don’t follow the law in gathering evidence or arresting someone, that person gets to go free? I haven’t heard anyone claim that (besides which, a lawyer would probably argue that, even in the U.S., if someone was arrested for mass murders and then there were problems with the arrest, that wouldn’t mean he’d end up going free although it might get certain evidence thrown out). **Razorsharp** , why do all of your OP’s turn into trainwrecks (actually, start out as trainwrecks)? If I was a fellow conservative on this board, I’d be really wishing you weren’t on my side. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/26 "2004-10-10T18:42:47Z")
> [@](#): > > I expect you’ll choose to ignore this post. 5 to 3 he does not ignore it, but does respond with a totally incomprehensible _non sequitur_ wrapped around an intended insult. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/27 "2004-10-11T03:48:36Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Because a President doesn’t like a country’s regime, then it’s okay to invade, then arrest and incarcerate that country’s leader? No. But surely you realize that is EXACTLY what George W. did? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/28 "2004-10-11T06:03:16Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Speaking of dumbasses. I’d really like to hear your justification of why his question was any dumber than yours. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/29 "2004-10-11T07:25:28Z")
I grow weary of people who don’t understand the rather straightforward idea that “Saddam was a bad man, and there’s a right and a wrong way to deal with him”, but rather can only think in black and white - “You’re either for him or agin’ him.” ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/30 "2004-10-11T12:02:17Z")
Oh, so if you (all you Kerry supporters who are critical of the war on Iraq, but are supportive of keeping Saddam in custody) were to inform the police of a neighbor’s possession of illegal weapons, and the police, armed with a search warrant for illegal weapons, searched that neighbor’s house but did not find any illegal weapons, but did discover a collection of “kiddie porn”, it would be okay to arrest and incarcerate him on that count? ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/31 "2004-10-11T12:06:05Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > He’s already been arrested. Do keep up. Absolutely brilliant!!! ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/32 "2004-10-11T12:17:53Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Absolutely brilliant!!! I thought so… ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/33 "2004-10-11T12:21:45Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > I’ve not kept up w/ Kerry too closely, so I may be mistaken; however, AFAICT, the “global test” remark was meant to reference the ‘L’ word- legitimacy. > Legitimacy is a large factor in what made the difference between the situations post WWII in Germany and Japan and the current situation in Iraq. In WWII we had legitimacy. This meant that people (citizens of these countries as well as citizens, governments and importantly investors of other countries) were more willing to cooperate with the efforts to rebuild the countries. Legitmacy cannot be won by force of arms, nor can it be purchased. You either have it or you don’t. One of the telling aspects of the lack of sufficient leguitmacy in Iraq is the grave reluctance of major non-Iraqi investors to risk funds in Iraq. > The practical and pragmatic aspects of legitimacy are that legitimacy makes these sorts of things go more smoothly. Smoothly means less cost in terms of money and less cost in terms of effort, and less bloodshed. > Those who’re short sighted enough to claim that diplomacy is merely “window dresing on realpolitik” ignore the realpolitik of diplomacy. The ability to motivate people to take desired actions is a powerful realpoilitik effect of the the so-called “window-dressing” that reduces the quantity and quality of resources that must be devoted to an enterprise. > > I expect you’ll choose to ignore this post. Now that you have had time to read what you have posted, you’re probably hoping I’ll ignore your post. Yes, legitimacy is the point, and John Kerry says (in so many words) that the war on Iraq was wrong and, ergo, illegitimate. So, if the war and invasion is illegitimate, how can the subsequent arrest and incarceration of Saddam be considered legitimate? John Kerry should be consistant and step up and demand the release and reinstatement of Saddam Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/34 "2004-10-11T12:24:27Z")
> [@Who\_me?](#): > > I thought so… I’m sure YOU did. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/35 "2004-10-11T12:29:42Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I’d really like to hear your justification of why his question was any dumber than yours. Because, Einstein, the war on Iraq is supposedly related to the war on terror. Now, do you get it? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/36 "2004-10-11T12:31:50Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Oh, so if you (all you Kerry supporters who are critical of the war on Iraq, but are supportive of keeping Saddam in custody) were to inform the police of a neighbor’s possession of illegal weapons, and the police, armed with a search warrant for illegal weapons, searched that neighbor’s house but did not find any illegal weapons, but did discover a collection of “kiddie porn”, it would be okay to arrest and incarcerate him on that count? IANAL, but, near as I can tell - yes, it would be okay to arrest and incarcerate him. If you have a search warrant, appropriately obtained, to search for illegal X, and while there, you find illegal Y, you can arrest somebody for Y, AFAIK. Again, **Razorsharp** - it feels like you care more about picking a fight and demanding to be declared right than listening and responding in a thoughtful manner. **BobLibDem** ’s articulation of a probably Kerry response seems fine. Why are we still discussing this? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/37 "2004-10-11T12:39:25Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Because, Einstein, the war on Iraq is supposedly related to the war on terror. Now, do you get it? The war on Iraq is related to the war on terror only in the minds of those who still believe that Bush was correct in his stated reasons to invade in the first place. Apparently not even Cheney asserts any link between Saddam and al-Quaeda, so your “supposedly” is looking pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/38 "2004-10-11T12:41:53Z")
Yes, if he had then been extradited to England for a crime commited there. Unless, of course, you are admitting the new Iraqi regime is really a puppet government. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/39 "2004-10-11T12:46:00Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > No. But surely you realize that is EXACTLY what George W. did? Yes, I realize that. In fact, I was against the Gulf War and against the War on Iraq. Nevertheless, there are other issues remaining that cause me to oppose a Kerry presidency. It’s that “lesser of two evils” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465/40 "2004-10-11T12:58:18Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Oh, so if you (all you Kerry supporters who are critical of the war on Iraq, but are supportive of keeping Saddam in custody) were to inform the police of a neighbor’s possession of illegal weapons, and the police, armed with a search warrant for illegal weapons, searched that neighbor’s house but did not find any illegal weapons, but did discover a collection of “kiddie porn”, it would be okay to arrest and incarcerate him on that count? If the “kiddie porn” were found in plain view during the execution of a valid search warrant, it would certainly be fine to arrest and incarerate him on that count. And if they have sufficient evidence that my neighbor committed other, unrelated crimes, I would certainly expect my neighbor to be charged with those crimes. Saddam is charged with numerous crimes for actions he took prior to the invasion. Saying that somehow he should not be held accountable for those crimes simply because you believe the questionable nature of the invasion is legally incorrect at best, and just plain idiotic at worst. And, by the by, you do realize the Exclusionary Rule of the United States’ Constitution does not cover international relations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-john-kerry/268465.md?page=3)