# My question for Libertarians - should it be legal to masturbate in public? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785 "2012-07-19T22:53:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/21 "2012-07-20T02:10:41Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > A lot of liber-anarch fictional utopias feature dueling as a way of deciding irreconcilable differences between individuals. If someone offends you so much that you absolutely cannot and will not accept it, then you stake your own life as the potential price of doing something about it. If you’re the one challenged to a duel, then you either agree to it, or be willing to accept the judgment of a neutral arbitrator. The thing about this system is that both people who are arrogant jerkasses and people who are intolerant control freaks tend to not have very long lifespans. Unless they are good at killing, in which case they have free rein to do as they please. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/22 "2012-07-20T03:26:01Z")
I get the feeling from this thread that people think there’s something wrong with public masturbation. I thought we were all past that now. Ah well, the fight for civil rights will never end. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/23 "2012-07-20T03:39:29Z")
I don’t know why you Dopers insist on making a caricature of libertarians. Libertarians with a small-l are people just like you and me who don’t like paying taxes but do want to smoke dope. Libertarians with a large-L are small-l libertarians well read enough to know that the Rothschilds own the Federal Reserve Bank and have squirreled away millions of tons of gold they intend to use for research into vaccines that will give all your children autism. Libertarians just want that gold in the hands of good Christian bankers like Rich Ricci or the Diamond Brothers. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/24 "2012-07-20T06:39:16Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > If one says “No” they cannot be a Libertarian. They are a moralist authoritarian who wants the state to impose their moral views on its citizens. Based on such a criteria, you can’t be a liberal either. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/25 "2012-07-20T09:14:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I do. Libertariansim is a clusterfuck in the details. That’s really the bottom line. It’s also a correct statement about socialism and other political ideologies. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/26 "2012-07-20T11:35:41Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > That’s really the bottom line. It’s also a correct statement about socialism and other political ideologies. The difference is in degree. Libertarianism has more problems with internal consistency than socialism or fascism or democracy; otherwise, we would have seen a real world example. Libertarianism is so dysfunctional, it has never even risen to the level of failure. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/27 "2012-07-20T17:21:17Z")
I’m not a libertarian but I think it should be ok to masturbate in public for different reasons, chief among them my desire to clear my record and be allowed back at the library again 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/28 "2012-07-20T17:54:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You come over and meet me and we negotiate a fair price for me to travel across your property (and back - I’m not falling for that trick of you letting me leave my property cheaply and then raising the price for me to cross back to my home.) > > \ > Or if you don’t like this scenario, here’s another. We’ve made our agreement and I’m walking across your property. But when I get halfway across, you point a gun at me and tell me you want a hundred dollars more from me. I protest that we had an agreement. You inform me that our agreement was only for me to walk across your property; we made no agreement for me to breathe your air. Being as I chose to walk across your property without holding my breath, I’m now obligated to reach a new agreement with you for the additional services I took without prior agreement. The mistake you’re making is in assuming that you’ll be negotiating these agreements from first principles every time, so you’ll have to remember to add in every little eventuality. That’s now how humans work, though. We have customary standards, and you only need to negotiate when you go outside those collective standards. There will be standardized contracts that spell out lots of eventualities. Possibly, someone will come up with a clever loophole every once in a while that isn’t standardized, and then everyone will go revise their contracts. Just like we have now with the law. Someone finds a loophole and exploits it, and then it gets added to the boilerplate and we ignore it. > [@](#): > > Is there some objective standard of what’s reasonable or does every possibility have to be negotiated out on a case-by-case basis? Do we really have to spend hours negotiating over the terms of an agreement every time I want to go out for pizza? Of course not! You’ll have a standard agreement in place. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/29 "2012-07-20T18:00:38Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > The mistake you’re making is in assuming that you’ll be negotiating these agreements from first principles every time, so you’ll have to remember to add in every little eventuality. That’s now how humans work, though. We have customary standards, and you only need to negotiate when you go outside those collective standards. There will be standardized contracts that spell out lots of eventualities. Possibly, someone will come up with a clever loophole every once in a while that isn’t standardized, and then everyone will go revise their contracts. Just like we have now with the law. Someone finds a loophole and exploits it, and then it gets added to the boilerplate and we ignore it. > > Of course not! You’ll have a standard agreement in place. So I should assume I can’t step off my property without a signed agreement in place? How do I get to court to sue the guy who didn’t honor the contract? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/30 "2012-07-20T18:12:23Z")
Fred? Is that you? ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/31 "2012-07-20T18:16:17Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So I should assume I can’t step off my property without a signed agreement in place? How do I get to court to sue the guy who didn’t honor the contract? You don’t. You shoot him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/32 "2012-07-20T18:28:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So I should assume I can’t step off my property without a signed agreement in place? How do I get to court to sue the guy who didn’t honor the contract? I picture it like this: I open my door, which opens inward, since I don’t own the sidewalk. The sidewalk has a bronze plate that says, “Heywood Sidewalks. Clean, even, slightly textured for grip in the rain. If you’ve got to get there, trust Heywood.” Beneath that it says, "_Commonlaw Standard Public Morality Agreement_ in effect. Using Heywood Sidewalks is construed as acceptance of said agreement. Toll Officers regularly patrol. Any Heywood Sidewalks authorized Toll Officer may require to see your Heywood Sidewalks License Scrip or demand payment for a day-pass. Failure to do either constitutes _BREECH OF CONTRACT_ and you will be referred to local magistrate. I have my Heywood Sidewalks scrip for the week and head on down to the local Piggly Wiggly. Unfortunately a quarter mile down the road there is a strip where the previous owner wouldn’t sell out to Heywood, so their length of sidewalk is Bosstone Pathways . I don’t usually go this direction, so I don’t have a Bosstone Scrip, but I will purchase a day pass on the off chance that a Toll Officer is walking that section. Today, unfortunately there he is. I make it half way down the cracked and dangerous Bosstone Pathways and the Toll Officer asks for 9 Liberty Dollars. Which is insane. “The toll is being increased for improvements. It’s only temporary.” “Well Horseshit!” I say. He cuffs me in the side of the head hard enough that I see stars. He then reminds me that Bosstone Pathways are under the _Commonlaw Church and Sanctified Places Morality Agreement_. Which, of course, includes light corporal punishment for swearing as one of the rights of the enforcers. My bad for not taking the time to read the Bosstone Plate in detail. I head back the way I came and instead will walk around the Bosstone section. It only adds four miles to my trip, and at my wage, that’s worth it to save 9 liberty dollars… Ah the freedom of my life! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/33 "2012-07-20T18:58:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, yeah, that! Germs, flies, stench… > > Can we say that a libertarian society has the right to protect itself against stench? Does my really stinky outhouse, or my pig farm, constitute an offense against my neighbor? It does no actual measurable objective harm…but it is grievously unpleasant… You’re free to generate as much stench as you like, as long as none of your stench escapes from your private property onto my private property. Oh, it turns out that you can’t control stench once you’ve created it, and you can’t help it that your stench comes onto my property? Well, then, no stench for you. You aren’t allowed to create trash and dump your trash onto my property, whether that trash is solid, liquid, or gaseous. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/34 "2012-07-20T19:27:02Z")
The libertarian solution is to create a market for open-air masturbation. We make an arbitrary social decision up front on how to allocate masturbation rights. Whether we allocate them initially to the onlookers or to the masturbators is of no consequence since an efficient solution will be reached by market bargaining, anyway. What ultimately happens is that the people we want to see masturbate in public will be incentivized to do so and likewise for the people we don’t want to see. It’s a coercion-free, welfare-maximizing private order. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/35 "2012-07-20T20:13:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You’re free to generate as much stench as you like, as long as none of your stench escapes from your private property onto my private property. . . . Well, not a bad ideal, I’ll grant you. Include things like flies, mosquitos, vultures, etc. (The pig farmer can’t just lay carcasses out to be devoured, because vultures will not respect property lines.) Of course, now we’re into litigation, and thus some minimal government power to enforce the courts’ decisions. And once a particular ruling has been made a number of times, it makes sense to encode it as a law; otherwise, we keep cluttering up the courts with already-decided issues. Seems that we’re re-inventing government… ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/36 "2012-07-20T20:26:20Z")
**Linden Arden** , would you please define libertarian in non-masturbatory terms? And when you say masturbating, do you mean fully exposed or being covered up? I don’t think that being a libertarian means that you believe that indecent exposure is impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/37 "2012-07-20T21:04:35Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > No, just like you don’t have to negotiate a new contract with Verizon every time you make a phone call. You could certainly sign an agreement with your neighbor ahead of time that addresses all these points to your mutual satisfaction. And you would be stupid to buy land that is only accessible by crossing your neighbor’s land without having such an agreement in place first, without expiration. Don’t blame me for getting into this predicament. When I bought my land I had a quite amicable and reasonable agreement with my neighbours. My problems didn’t start until this yahoo came along and bought a strip of land that surrounds my property. He won’t sign a general ongoing agreement with me; he insists on only making agreements on a case-by-case basis. It could be worse; my neighbour is only doing this to be annoying so he’s always agreed to let me cross his land once he’s had his fun. I heard about a guy in the next town over who had a beautiful mansion and thirty acres of landscaped property. Then some asshole bought a one-inch strip along his entire property line and refused to let the guy cross his “property”. The guy couldn’t get in or out of his own property and ended up having to sell it to the asshole for less than a tenth of its real value. Oh well, that’s life in Libertopia I guess. Just one of the inconveniences we have to endure in order to be free. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/38 "2012-07-20T22:23:59Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > If one says “No” they cannot be a Libertarian. They are a moralist authoritarian who wants the state to impose their moral views on its citizens. > > There is no harm done to me if such behavior occurs. Now an owner of private property could object just as in not allowing a barefoot or shirtless person on their property. > > This is my test to determine the false liberty people from the real. Sorry, but this is absurd. If by “public” you mean “on government-owned property”, the government has as much right to regulate what happens there as any other property owner does on his or her own property. Of course, I have the disadvantage of being an actual, real flesh-and-blood libertarian, not the kind you make up in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/39 "2012-07-20T22:30:11Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, but this is absurd. If by “public” you mean “on government-owned property”, the government has as much right to regulate what happens there as any other property owner does on his or her own property. > > Of course, I have the disadvantage of being an actual, real flesh-and-blood libertarian, not the kind you make up in your head. I have a house that abuts to a public road. I’m standing nude and wiping a soapy ass on the inside surface of my picture window. There is a school across the street. Okay? Also, why does the government own property? Could you explain that briefly? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785/40 "2012-07-20T22:33:46Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, but this is absurd. If by “public” you mean “on government-owned property”, the government has as much right to regulate what happens there as any other property owner does on his or her own property. > > Of course, I have the disadvantage of being an actual, real flesh-and-blood libertarian, not the kind you make up in your head. Glad you showed up. Now help us with the question. If somebody wants to stand out on their front lawn (their own property) and masturbate in full view of everyone else on the street, do they have the right to do that in a libertarian society? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-question-for-libertarians-should-it-be-legal-to-masturbate-in-public/628785.md?page=3)