# My roommate knows (and doesn't know) the weirdest things **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 6, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496 "2009-05-06T01:42:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/141 "2009-05-07T16:32:32Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I had that happen to me once on a business trip to Dayton Ohio. At the hotel bar were some locals from “Northern Kentucky”. Let’s just say they were less then convincing that they were in anyway different from what people would expect of Kentuckians (you said hillbilly, not me) :). I did, but it wasn’t meant to be a reflection of my own attitude, but rather an attempt to understand what it is that these Northern Kentuckians don’t want to be assoicated with. It’s funny…the Northern Kentuckians don’t want to be associated with the rest of Kentucky (though they are clearly a part of it), and the Ohioans don’t want to be associated with any of Kentucky, (even the part of it that is clearly part of the Cincinnati metro area). And the OP seems highly invested in not being associated with the South, as well. I can see why Southerners get defensive about their culture, I truly can. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/142 "2009-05-07T16:34:51Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Seems to me that if there’s any “panic”, it’s more from people who are scared to death that they’ll be associated with anything “Southern.” You know what? I don’t hate the South. At all. As I’ve already stated. I do not take offense when someone says that Northern Virginia is part of the South. I wouldn’t be offended if someone said it were part of the Midwest, either. But I don’t think either statement is accurate. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/143 "2009-05-07T16:36:26Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > To you maybe, because you are willing to forget history once it reaches an arbitrary “expires by” date. > > It is not like the Civil Ware exploded out of nowhere, imposing itself on VA, or the interests of VA in the creation of the US, and the negotiation of the Constitution were not aligned with the South or anything…:rolleyes: Are you serious? Do you remember that Virginia was the state that went to the Supreme Court to preserve anti-miscegenation laws? That’s why there are no mixed-race marriages in Virginia today. Oh, wait. Things change. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Burlington is a suburb of New York? I know the population demographics in NoVa are different than when I lived nearby, but I thought the school systems were excellent overall. Don’t they teach map reading skills? Maybe that is what is at the heart of this debate - the population is deluded because they are not good at reading and interpreting maps or teaching same to the kids? This kind of hostile sarcasm says a lot about you than it does about anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/144 "2009-05-07T16:39:40Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Iand the Ohioans don’t want to be associated with any of Kentucky, (even the part of it that is clearly part of the Cincinnati metro area). A lot of Ohioans don’t want to be associated with the rest of the Cincinnati metro area either, including the parts that are actually in Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/145 "2009-05-07T16:40:53Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Even if everything superficial is the same, the ghosts of history are still there. Okay, now it’s my turn. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/146 "2009-05-07T16:41:15Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I can see why Southerners get defensive about their culture, I truly can. I can only speak for myself, but what really frosts my flakes is when people like **TruCelt** spew that crap. Mock Southern culture all you want, but get it RIGHT. Otherwise, you’re just exposing your own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/147 "2009-05-07T16:42:00Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > We’re talking about the possibility of border of a cultural region maybe moving a hundred miles or so over the course of a century. Do you really think that’s analogous to saying that a couple blocks of Manhattan are “not in North America”? By the standards of the post I quoted, yes I do. Have you ever been there? My college gf was from there, and while I grew up in NJ suburbs and had been to NY and Manhatten may times, that was an eye-opener. her parents, and most of the people there, can live as though they are in China and never leave the neighborhood their whole lives, and they can live without interacting in any language other then Chinese, or treating anyone that they encounter that doesn’t speak Chinese as anything other than a visitor or tourist. How is that culturally part of America, North, South, East or West? > [@](#): > > There was a time when Virginia claimed a swath of territory that reaches into modern Wisconsin and Minnesota. People in Duluth-Superior today probably have no feeling of a cultural connection to Virginia. There was a time when London was a Roman provincial capital inhabited primarily by Romanized Celts. We’re talking about the possibility of a much, much smaller change here and some posters are acting as if someone’s trying to stab their grandmothers. Historically, those lands were never part of the “South”, by the time they were inhabited by other than natives and functioning on their own, they were no longer part of Virginia. But where I live now, there is an old Indian reservation just outside of town, and despite a hundred years or more of agriculture - you may have read of this area in The Grapes of Wrath, e.g., there is still a certain feel that is Native American somehow. Also, there is a certain feel that we are Oklahomish, even if you can’t see it or most people, several generations in, don’t get it. And you don;t have to look hard to find that John Muir himself passed through this area on the way to his favorite spots in the mountains above. That we have more suburban sprawl in this town now then Reston did when I interviewed there in the early 80s changes nothing about the pure character of the place. And the same is true for NoVa - sprawl doesn’t erase or replace history. > [@](#): > > I’m from Ohio. There are several places where I grew up that feel a lot more southern to me than Arlington, Virginia. I don’t doubt that. But the OP posited that NoVa is not “part of the South” - it is and always will be. History can’t be erased, and locations can’t be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/148 "2009-05-07T16:44:15Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > A lot of Ohioans don’t want to be associated with the rest of the Cincinnati metro area either, including the parts that are actually in Ohio. I’ve no doubt that’s true! I guess my thought about Northern Virginia is this: is it possible that “The South” is undergoing a cultural shift, or at least parts of it? Is Northern Virginia just lucky that they can slip into the actual North because they’re right on the border? I mean, you could say that Atlanta isn’t really part of the South anymore, either, as it’s had such a large influx of northerners, and it’s a large, cosmopolitan city, and that kind of thing. Does all that preclude it from being part of the South, despite it being surrounded by the actual South? Or is it that the Mason-Dixon line is slipping lower? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/149 "2009-05-07T16:47:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > I was speaking _hypothetically_. Also note that I said New York, not New York City, and Burlington, VT, is right on the border between New York and Vermont. So which town or city in NY State Burlington hypothetically a suburb if? Syracuse? Utica? Buffalo? Somewhere else? I guess I don’t get your analogy to making a city a “suburb” of a msaller city or empty space that happens to be across the border of a state. > [@](#): > > And guess what: that really doesn’t have much to do with Northern Virginia nowadays. See, sometimes, the recent history of a metropolitan area can affect its current character much more than what happened there over a century ago. I know it’s hard to believe. Sure, but it doesn’t affect its location, and denying its history doesn’t make it go away. See the current kerfuffle about google and Japanese maps for a very good related example. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/150 "2009-05-07T16:49:37Z")
Time to nuke Northern Virginia from orbit. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/151 "2009-05-07T16:51:33Z")
It’s at least four things: (1) The South and southern culture themselves have been changing, just like every cultural unit does. (2) Pockets of the South that have attracted significant in-migration have changed even faster, the same way that pockets of the non-South have experienced significant changes (3) The notional cultural border between North and South is blurring and moving. (4) Mobility and mass culture are wearing down lots of regional differences. Cultural differences are much more likely to be tied to individuals than to geography. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/152 "2009-05-07T16:52:32Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Okay, now it’s my turn. > :rolleyes: I know, I could hardly beleive it myself. But call me crazy, I had a different feeling driving through the Blue Ridge Mountains and Tucumcari NM, and Austin Texas and Compton in Los Angeles. The weight and evidence of history is everywhere. Having grown up in a small area ranging from suburban NJ to Baltimore, it was a surprise to me. I get the sense that OP and some others are simply denying the history of their region for some reason, it is not that they are unaware of it despite it being paved over before they got there, they are actively denying it. And as I said before, that is sad to me. Why not learn from the trend of how a place moved from “cuturally unacceptable” (whatever that might mean to an individual) to “culturally acceptable”? I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/153 "2009-05-07T16:56:15Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > That we have more suburban sprawl in this town now then Reston did when I interviewed there in the early 80s changes nothing about the pure character of the place. The principal complaint about suburban sprawl is that it _changes the character of a place_. > [@](#): > > And the same is true for NoVa - sprawl doesn’t erase or replace history. > [@](#): > > History can’t be erased, and locations can’t be changed. 1. Actually, history _can_ be erased. But that’s beside the point 2. The topic under discussion is not the physical removal of one place to another, but a blurring and shifting of a cultural border, which is constantly happening all over the world as people move and culture changes. > [@not\_alice](#): > > But call me crazy You’re not crazy, but you’re fallaciously imposing your feelings on inanimate objects aand on other people, who very rightly might have contradictory feelings. These feelings are not inherent; they’re coming from you. > [@](#): > > I get the sense that OP and some others are simply denying the history of their region for some reason I’m not denying history. I’m saying that I’m not talking about history. I’m talking about the present and the present is very often different from history. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/154 "2009-05-07T16:59:57Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > 1. The topic under discussion is not the physical removal of one place to another, but a blurring and shifting of a cultural border, which is constantly happening all over the world as people move and culture changes. You can argue that the cultural border is _blurring_, but you can’t very well argue that it has _moved_, since the majority perception here is clearly that NoVa is still in the South. Thus, it remains Southern by default, since it hasn’t actually left yet. It’s just packing its bags and saying its goodbyes. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/155 "2009-05-07T17:00:37Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > (4) Mobility and mass culture are wearing down lots of regional differences. Cultural differences are much more likely to be tied to individuals than to geography. This is not gd, so I don;'t want to get into it deeply here, but I’d say that this is only true at a very superficial level. I have lived in urban, suburban sprawl, and now rural areas from east to west. While some areas are similar on the surface, you don’t have to go too deep to find the differences in infrastructure or local culture. We do not live in Bland-ia USA unless we choose to look at it that way. And I am confident, despite not having been there since the early 90s, that NoVa is not culturally the same below the thinnest veneer of the surface as Montgomery County in MD (or DC for that matter) despite being contiguous in every meaning of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/156 "2009-05-07T17:02:43Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > And I am confident, despite not having been there since the early 90s, that NoVa is not culturally the same below the thinnest veneer of the surface as Montgomery County in MD (or DC for that matter) despite being contiguous in every meaning of the word. Okay, how can I put this: _Shit has changed in the last 15 years_. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/157 "2009-05-07T17:04:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can argue that the cultural border is _blurring_, but you can’t very well argue that it has _moved_ This is just shenanigans. It has blurred when a sufficient number of people believe it has blurred and it has moved when a sufficient larger number of people believe it has moved. My data point is the belief that has moved. > [@](#): > > since the majority perception here is clearly that NoVa is still in the South. This thread is not a valid statistical sample > [@](#): > > Thus, it remains Southern by default, More semantic shenanigans. There’s no such thing as a “default” when you’re talking about perceptions. > [@](#): > > since it hasn’t actually left yet. It’s just packing its bags and saying its goodbyes. And you’ve just validated my point. If you want to weasel-word it, that’s fine with me. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/158 "2009-05-07T17:05:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can argue that the cultural border is _blurring_, but you can’t very well argue that it has _moved_, since the majority perception here is clearly that NoVa is still in the South. And as far as I can tell, nobody saying that has actually _lived_ in Northern Virginia in the last ten or fifteen years. See, when you live somewhere for a while, you’re likely to have a more accurate perspective on what it’s like than someone who lived somewhere nearby more than a decade ago. Funny how that works. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/159 "2009-05-07T17:07:10Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > This thread is not a valid statistical sample Alright. Find a better one, and we’ll talk. There’s nothing really wrong with being in the South, you know. These days, they don’t even make you drive a pickup truck or fly a Confederate flag, and we have integrated lunch counters and everything! ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496/160 "2009-05-07T17:12:06Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The principal complaint about suburban sprawl is that it _changes the character of a place_. I’d argue if that is the PRINCIPLE complaint, but it is among them, sure. Change of the character of a place is inevitable, sprawl or not. The principle complaint would be, is sprawl the best choice to make (in advance or in retrospect) It is not among the complaints that it changes the history or location of a place though. > [@](#): > > 1. Actually, history _can_ be erased. But that’s beside the point No it is not besides the point. Why would one group in this thread not embrace their history as determining the threads and trends that got them where they are today, even if they love the current place (physically and culturally both)? > [@](#): > > 1. The topic under discussion is not the physical removal of one place to another, but a blurring and shifting of a cultural border, which is constantly happening all over the world as people move and culture changes. The OP doesn’t mention that. I suspect it is lack of clarity of the terms in the OP’s mind compared to his or her roommate’s view of the same fuzzy concept that is being repeated here. Let’s not pretend to define a discussion solely in terms that favor your position. The issue is, the issue is fuzzy what we are talking about because the OP was unclear. > [@](#): > > You’re not crazy, but you’re fallaciously imposing your feelings on inanimate objects aand on other people, who very rightly might have contradictory feelings. These feelings are not inherent; they’re coming from you. I am not imposing anything on anyone. Are you really suggesting you can’t tell the difference in place or the sense of history if you are in “downtown” Tucumcari or Wall Street? Or any other two places you have ever been? > [@](#): > > I’m not denying history. I’m saying that I’m not talking about history. I’m talking about the present and the present is very often different from history. Maybe that is a certain kind of modernism that suggests that history is not relevant to the current time and place. I am not a historian, but I bet that is a common feeling among people in many places and many times. Doesn’t change the tides of history though, although it probably limits how people can benefit from the tide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roommate-knows-and-doesnt-know-the-weirdest-things/495496.md?page=9)