# My September 11 Thoughts
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 4, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989 "2014-06-04T02:41:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 35
### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/681 "2014-06-26T11:13:53Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Ah yes, we see another typical tactic of the true believers. This statement totally contradicts eyewitness accounts of explosions in the basements and fireballs in the lobbies before the planes hit.
>
> You can bring up nonsense like graviton beams and lasers, but you can’t really hand-wave these accounts from people that were there. And remember, we got these accounts raw and unfiltered, before any pressure was applied by society to just go with the official story.
>
> Before you give me any excuses about eyewitness testimony not being reliable, remember people are sent to prison all the time based upon the same accounts.
>
> Now you tell me. How can you just dismiss the multiple accounts, all saying the same thing?
Okay, even assuming that everything you just said is true (which, as tomndebb points out, it isn’t), we can _totally_ discount any and all claims of explosions in the basement based on one simple, easily-observable fact. The towers collapsed from the top down, starting at where the planes hit. Any explosions in the basement would have, at best, been coincidental.
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/682 "2014-06-26T11:21:49Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Ah yes, we see another typical tactic of the true believers. This statement totally contradicts eyewitness accounts of explosions in the basements and fireballs in the lobbies before the planes hit.
Oh nonsense.
1. There is no proof they happened ‘before the planes hit’. In fact only one person makes that claim (Rodriguez). He had no real way of knowing. And he has backed away from it in recent months since he is no longer being financially . (Pecaro, for example, never made such a claim)
2. Fireballs are no surprise when a plane hits a building. When the ESB was struck by a plane the lobby was blasted by a fuel fireball coming down the shaft. That bomber had a lot less fuel than the planes that hit the WTC
3. Fireball…what is the point? Any explosion that causes a fireball is not going to do much damage to the building’s structure. Cutting charges don’t make much in the way of ‘fireballs’.
---
### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/683 "2014-06-26T11:29:22Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Ah yes, we see another typical tactic of the true believers. This statement totally contradicts eyewitness accounts of explosions in the basements and fireballs in the lobbies before the planes hit.
>
> You can bring up nonsense like graviton beams and lasers, but you can’t really hand-wave these accounts from people that were there. And remember, we got these accounts raw and unfiltered, before any pressure was applied by society to just go with the official story.
What the hell are you talking about?
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Before you give me any excuses about eyewitness testimony not being reliable, remember people are sent to prison all the time based upon the same accounts.
Cite?
---
### Author:  [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/684 "2014-06-26T11:35:55Z")
People in the basement and lobby were affected, the same accounts detail how people saw others with skin falling off due to severe burns. In fact, we have an account of a someone trying to grab another persons arms and couldn’t do it because of the burns. In the lobby.
I will back off on my use of the term explosion, in favor of [conflagration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflagration), which I have been witness to and most people equate to explosion, as I’ve said before. To be specific a [BLEVE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE).
Either way, regardless of what word you want to use, it’s clear that something was going on in the basements of the buildings. You are not really suggesting that the fireball from the planesl traveled down and caused all this destruction, are you?
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/685 "2014-06-26T11:43:41Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> People in the basement and lobby were affected, the same accounts detail how people saw others with skin falling off due to severe burns. In fact, we have an account of a someone trying to grab another persons arms and couldn’t do it because of the burns. In the lobby.
Which is consistent with the burns one would get from a fireball travelling down the elevator shaft.
It is not consistent with injuries one would get from being near cutting charges. Get in the range of those and you won’t have burns, you’d have body parts vaporized.
> [@](#):
>
> I will back off on my use of the term explosion, in favor of [conflagration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflagration), which I have been witness to and most people equate to explosion, as I’ve said before. To be specific a [BLEVE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE).
>
> Either way, regardless of what word you want to use, it’s clear that something was going on in the basements of the buildings. You are not really suggesting that the fireball from the planesl traveled down and caused all this destruction, are you?
Uh, yes. That is exactly what happened. As I pointed out earlier when a bomber hit the ESB with a fraction of the fuel the jets on 911 had they still had a fireball hit the lobby and damage it.
More to the point, why would someone plant fireball bombs in the basement if their intent was to cause structural damage?!
---
### Author:  [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/686 "2014-06-26T11:46:13Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Ah yes, we see another typical tactic of the true believers. This statement totally contradicts eyewitness accounts of explosions in the basements and fireballs in the lobbies before the planes hit.
Rodriguez’s first eyewitness account was actually of loud ‘rumbles’ in the basement, not explosions. For whatever reason (ahem), Rodriguez changed the rumbles to a powerful explosion in statements made years later.
Out of curiosity, which part of his very reliable eyewitness account did you find the most believable? The loud rumbles or the powerful explosion?
---
### Author:  [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/687 "2014-06-26T11:48:47Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> Oh nonsense.
>
> 1. There is no proof they happened ‘before the planes hit’. In fact only one person makes that claim (Rodriguez). He had no real way of knowing. And he has backed away from it in recent months since he is no longer being financially . (Pecaro, for example, never made such a claim)
>
> 2. Fireballs are no surprise when a plane hits a building. When the ESB was struck by a plane the lobby was blasted by a fuel fireball coming down the shaft. That bomber had a lot less fuel than the planes that hit the WTC
>
> 3. Fireball…what is the point? Any explosion that causes a fireball is not going to do much damage to the building’s structure. Cutting charges don’t make much in the way of ‘fireballs’.
It’s bull that the fuel traveled down the elevator shaft and burned out the basement and lobby because we all saw most of it consumed in the fireball outside of the building.
You are also making assumptions in your third point. Who said just cutting charges were used? We all know H.E. don’t make fireballs, you don’t think the people that pulled this off know that and would have planed for that?
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/688 "2014-06-26T11:54:05Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> It’s bull that the fuel traveled down the elevator shaft and burned out the basement and lobby because we all saw most of it consumed in the fireball outside of the building.
No. We did not. We saw a lot of fuel consumed outside the building. We most certainly did not see _most_ the fuel consumed. There was plenty of fuel to set fires within the building and travel down elevators shafts.
> [@](#):
>
> You are also making assumptions in your third point. Who said just cutting charges were used? We all know H.E. don’t make fireballs, you don’t think the people that pulled this off know that and would have planed for that?
Something that causes damage by fireball would be excellent against soft tissue. Not so good against structural steel unless it sets other consumables on fire.
More to the point, the collapses of the buildings stared where the planes hit. They did not start in the basement.
---
### Author:  [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/689 "2014-06-26T11:56:52Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#):
>
> Rodriguez’s first eyewitness account was actually of loud ‘rumbles’ in the basement, not explosions. For whatever reason (ahem), Rodriguez changed the rumbles to a powerful explosion in statements made years later.
>
> Out of curiosity, which part of his very reliable eyewitness account did you find the most believable? The loud rumbles or the powerful explosion?
Look, I know what your trying to do here. I don’t think I said powerful explosions. I can pull up a seismograph that corroborates the eyewitness accounts. Two distinct spikes.
---
### Author:  [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/690 "2014-06-26T12:11:48Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> No. We did not. We saw a lot of fuel consumed outside the building. We most certainly did not see _most_ the fuel consumed. There was plenty of fuel to set fires within the building and travel down elevators shafts.
>
> Something that causes damage by fireball would be excellent against soft tissue. Not so good against structural steel unless it sets other consumables on fire.
>
> More to the point, the collapses of the buildings stared where the planes hit. They did not start in the basement.
Fuel to cause the damage that we see in pictures, I don’t think even the official myth is claiming that. There is no way fireball from the planes could have traveled down the elevator shafts and caused that kind of damage in the basement and lobby. This is known fact due to things like air to fuel ratio, and I don’t know anyone who is claiming otherwise. Once again, known physics have to be bent to fit the official myth.
Your version sounds like a movie. Like the Matrix blowing elevator doors off with a fireball.
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/691 "2014-06-26T12:24:16Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Fuel to cause the damage that we see in pictures, I don’t think even the official myth is claiming that. There is no way fireball from the planes could have traveled down the elevator shafts and caused that kind of damage in the basement and lobby.
“There is no way” is basically you saying ‘nu-uh’. Look at the Naudet brothers videos and tell me why there are so many broken windows in the lobby.
> [@](#):
>
> This is known fact due to things like air to fuel ratio, and I don’t know anyone who is claiming otherwise.
I’d like to know how ‘this is a known fact’. I don’t see any evidence on your part beyond your assertions.
> [@](#):
>
> Once again, known physics have to be bent to fit the official myth.
It does not. This is a known effect and I as I pointed out it happened when the bomber hit the ESB.
> [@](#):
>
> Your version sounds like a movie. Like the Matrix blowing elevator doors off with a fireball.
When you get that much expanding gases in such a short time what do you think is going to happen?
---
### Author:  [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/692 "2014-06-26T12:30:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> What the hell are you talking about?
>
> Cite?
You want me to cite people being sent to prison based off eyewitness testimony?
Really?
---
### Author:  [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/693 "2014-06-26T12:35:57Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Look, I know what your trying to do here. I don’t think I said powerful explosions. I can pull up a seismograph that corroborates the eyewitness accounts. Two distinct spikes.
You did say _explosions_, perhaps not _powerful explosions_, but definitely _explosions_. And Rodriguez (a man whose talent in metamorphosis are envied by the likes of Optimus Prime) said _the_ explosion (the one you are presumably talking about) was powerful enough to lift him and everyone else in the room up into the air. This was years after initially stating the rumbling (later to become an explosion) sounded like someone dragging very heavy furniture across a floor.
In one account, Rodriguez also said the unidentified noise sounded like a generator exploding. Why have you hand-waved this particular testimony from your own source?
If you are not insinuating powerful explosions, then tell me, why are you about to present me with a seismograph that details two distinct spikes?
---
### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/694 "2014-06-26T12:45:20Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> You want me to cite people being sent to prison based off eyewitness testimony?
>
> Really?
I would like you to not change the subject and provide a cite for people going to prison for presenting “raw and unfiltered” accounts “before any pressure was applied by society to just go with the official story.”
Yes, really.
---
### Author:  [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/695 "2014-06-26T12:47:03Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> “There is no way” is basically you saying ‘nu-uh’. Look at the Naudet brothers videos and tell me why there are so many broken windows in the lobby.
>
> I’d like to know how ‘this is a known fact’. I don’t see any evidence on your part beyond your assertions.
>
> It does not. This is a known effect and I as I pointed out it happened when the bomber hit the ESB.
>
> When you get that much expanding gases in such a short time what do you think is going to happen?
Ah yes, now it’s my turn to be treated like psikeyhackr, who was calling for actual tests and who is now suspended.
Good thing for me the AFR of kerosene is well known, and it’s easily proven that it is not possible for the planes fuel to travel down the elevator shafts of the WTC and cause the kind of destruction we saw and heard. There was just not that amount of oxygen available in the shafts to feed it.
---
### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/696 "2014-06-26T12:51:39Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Look, I know what your trying to do here. I don’t think I said powerful explosions. I can pull up a seismograph that corroborates the eyewitness accounts. Two distinct spikes.
Pull away. Let’s see your data
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Fuel to cause the damage that we see in pictures, I don’t think even the official myth is claiming that. There is no way fireball from the planes could have traveled down the elevator shafts and caused that kind of damage in the basement and lobby. This is known fact due to things like air to fuel ratio, and I don’t know anyone who is claiming otherwise. Once again, known physics have to be bent to fit the official myth.
>
> Your version sounds like a movie. Like the Matrix blowing elevator doors off with a fireball.
OK I’ll bite. What is it about air fuel ratio that would prevent fuel from traveling down the elevator shaft and igniting?
Also what physics has to be bent for this to happen?
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/697 "2014-06-26T12:58:12Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Ah yes, now it’s my turn to be treated like psikeyhackr, who was calling for actual tests and who is now suspended.
Does this mean we have to start all over again, _again?_
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/698 "2014-06-26T12:58:34Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Ah yes, now it’s my turn to be treated like psikeyhackr, who was calling for actual tests and who is now suspended.
Inviting trouble, are we?
> [@](#):
>
> Good thing for me the AFR of kerosene is well known, and it’s easily proven that it is not possible for the planes fuel to travel down the elevator shafts of the WTC and cause the kind of destruction we saw and heard. There was just not that amount of oxygen available in the shafts to feed it.
Uh huh. Took the oxygen readings yourself, did you?
Your bald assertion is not evidence. You need better proof than a “nu-uh!”
---
### Author:  [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/699 "2014-06-26T13:05:58Z")
> [@Rick](#):
>
> Pull away. Let’s see your data
>
> OK I’ll bite. What is it about air fuel ratio that would prevent fuel from traveling down the elevator shaft and igniting?
> Also what physics has to be bent for this to happen?
We are going beyond just igniting as far as the basement and lobby are concerned. I know you are one of the car people on the board, but so am I.
Even if I discount the eyewitness, there is no way the flame front could have traveled from the impact points to the basement and lobby given the time and fuel available.
---
### Author:  [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/700 "2014-06-26T13:11:42Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> We are going beyond just igniting as far as the basement and lobby are concerned. I know you are one of the car people on the board, but so am I.
>
> Even if I discount the eyewitness, there is no way the flame front could have traveled from the impact points to the basement and lobby given the time and fuel available.
So how much time and fuel was available?
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