# My September 11 Thoughts
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 4, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989 "2014-06-04T02:41:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 36
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/701 "2014-06-26T13:16:22Z")
If he quotes Kevin ‘gypsum would soak up jet fuel like a sponge!’ Ryan I will laugh my ass off.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/702 "2014-06-26T13:20:56Z")
nm. No need to respond to bs.
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### Author:  [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/703 "2014-06-26T13:22:20Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#):
>
> So how much time and fuel was available?
It’s estimated that at least 50% of the available fuel was consumed on impact, and we know the fire was fuel starved due to the color of the smoke.
We can calculate the time based on the eyewitness, but where should we start since you don’t believe they heard what they said they heard.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/704 "2014-06-26T13:30:02Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> It does not. This is a known effect and I as I pointed out it happened when the bomber hit the ESB.
You seem to be discounting the possibility that the ESB crash was _also_ a covert demolition set up to discredit the truthers 56 years in advance.
It takes _time_ to plan this sort of thing out, you know.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/705 "2014-06-26T13:33:41Z")
I think we have to ask **Split P&J** the same simple question that we asked **Psikey** :
If the “official version” and “what we all saw with our own eyes” is incorrect, then what happened to bring the WTC down?
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/706 "2014-06-26T13:36:07Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> It’s estimated that at least 50% of the available fuel was consumed on impact, and we know the fire was fuel starved due to the color of the smoke.
Estimated by whom?
How is fuel consumed?
Is fuel combustion the only source of smoke?
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> We can calculate the time based on the eyewitness, but where should we start since you don’t believe they heard what they said they heard.
I believe people heard and saw all sorts of things. Correctly attributing those observations is the tricky part.
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### Author:  [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/707 "2014-06-26T13:47:45Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> It’s estimated that at least 50% of the available fuel was consumed on impact, and we know the fire was fuel starved due to the color of the smoke.
It’s estimated by whom exactly? Richard Gage? You just said before that _most_ of the plane’s fuel was consumed on impact. Now it’s 50%. The colour of the smoke is something else you have picked up off AE911 i.e. it’s meaningless.
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> We can calculate the time based on the eyewitness, heard.
Calculate away. No one is stopping you. Or, more realistically, link me to the site you were about to copy and paste from.
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> but where should we start since you don’t believe they heard what they said they
If the key witness, Rodriguez, could stick to a single story and not be proven to have elaborated it over time then I’d find his stories slightly more believable. He also said, and this is a point you have conveniently skimmed over, that he initially thought he heard a generator exploding. Why do you not believe the eyewitnesses could have in fact heard exploding generators?
That is of course if the sound of someone dragging heavy furniture over a floor could be mistaken for a explosion powerful enough to register on a seismograph. Twice.
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/708 "2014-06-26T13:56:18Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#):
>
> The colour of the smoke is something else you have picked up off AE911 i.e. it’s meaningless.
And the color of the smoke would be from more than just jet fuel. Insulation, carpeting, wall materials, furniture, etc. would also be burning.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/709 "2014-06-26T14:05:01Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> and we know the fire was fuel starved due to the color of the smoke.
Simply not true.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/710 "2014-06-26T14:15:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> Estimated by whom?
IIRC NIST estimated that 20% of the fuel was consumed outside the building in the fireball, 40% was in the impact zone, and the remaining 40% was forced into the lower levels.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/711 "2014-06-26T14:26:24Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#):
>
> You did say _explosions_, perhaps not _powerful explosions_, but definitely _explosions_. And Rodriguez (a man whose talent in metamorphosis are envied by the likes of Optimus Prime) said _the_ explosion (the one you are presumably talking about) was powerful enough to lift him and everyone else in the room up into the air. This was years after initially stating the rumbling (later to become an explosion) sounded like someone dragging very heavy furniture across a floor.
>
> In one account, Rodriguez also said the unidentified noise sounded like a generator exploding.
> [@Deu5Vult](#):
>
> If the key witness, Rodriguez, could stick to a single story and not be proven to have elaborated it over time then I’d find his stories slightly more believable. He also said, and this is a point you have conveniently skimmed over, that he initially thought he heard a generator exploding. Why do you not believe the eyewitnesses could have in fact heard exploding generators?
When interviewed by the press on 9/11, Rodriguez did not say a damn thing about explosions in the basement or anywhere else. That didn’t come along until after being interviewed by radio host Alex “Everything Is a Conspiracy” Jones and filing a lawsuit against the Bush Administration.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/712 "2014-06-26T14:33:52Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#):
>
> Why do you not believe the eyewitnesses could have in fact heard exploding generators?
If we’re discussing eyewitnesses not in the basement, there’s also the sound of bodies impacting pavement after falling some 80 levels. Which has been described as the sound of the popping of wet paper bags.
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### Author:  [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/713 "2014-06-26T14:40:28Z")
In the past year, people in my city have mistaken car engines, slammed doors, and other loud sounds as gunshots and called the police. And that’s without a giant friggin’ airplane hitting a building.
If people can mistake sounds for gunshots under normal circumstances, what the hell is surprising about people mistaking the sounds associated with an abnormal circumstance (a giant friggin’ airplane hitting a building and bodies/debris falling all around) as explosions? People don’t do well with loud, sudden noises. Good for monkey survival. Not so good for objective recall/evaluation of the facts.
This is veering awfully close to grassy knoll territory.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/714 "2014-06-26T14:51:57Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Look, I know what your trying to do here. I don’t think I said powerful explosions. I can pull up a seismograph that corroborates the eyewitness accounts. Two distinct spikes.
More like [four distinct spikes, which correspond to the towers being impacted by the planes and the ground being impacted by the towers](http://www.seeninside.net/911/sismica1.jpg).
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/715 "2014-06-26T14:57:00Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> We are going beyond just igniting as far as the basement and lobby are concerned. I know you are one of the car people on the board, but so am I.
>
> Even if I discount the eyewitness, there is no way the flame front could have traveled from the impact points to the basement and lobby given the time and fuel available.
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> It’s estimated that at least 50% of the available fuel was consumed on impact, and we know the fire was fuel starved due to the color of the smoke.
>
> We can calculate the time based on the eyewitness, but where should we start since you don’t believe they heard what they said they heard.
You know what’s missing here? Citation. The actual calculations. Any kind of a source. Come on, man, you say they exist, let’s see 'em. If you’re so sure it should be easy to show your work. You claim that the air-fuel ratio made it impossible for the jet fuel to travel like that. Prove it.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/716 "2014-06-26T14:59:21Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Ah yes, we see another typical tactic of the true believers. This statement totally contradicts eyewitness accounts of explosions in the basements and fireballs in the lobbies before the planes hit.
those statements don’t contradict anything. fuel from the plane poured down the elevator shafts and ignited. It blew the doors off the elevators in the lobby and badly burned people in the elevator.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/717 "2014-06-26T15:20:06Z")
My cousin was in the subway station when the first plane hit. He mentioned nothing about below-ground explosions.
I mean, if we’re going to pull eyewitness accounts into this thread with no citations, then there we go.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/718 "2014-06-26T15:32:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> You know what’s missing here? Citation.
[Here’s one.](http://bridgetownblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/1981-chevrolet-citation.jpg) 😃
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/719 "2014-06-26T15:41:38Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#):
>
> [Here’s one.](http://bridgetownblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/1981-chevrolet-citation.jpg) 😃
That’s a pretty shabby cite. 😃
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/720 "2014-06-26T15:58:23Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> IIRC NIST estimated that 20% of the fuel was consumed outside the building in the fireball, 40% was in the impact zone, and the remaining 40% was forced into the lower levels.
How? I mean, physics would dictate that fuel would rise, not fall, since…gravity! Thus proving that the only logical conclusion is that the government used explosives to take down the buildings. 😛
(On a more serious note, there were a lot of things that could have exploded inside the buildings. Several of them had diesel bunkers for backup generators, there were cleaning supplies and other volatiles that are in any large office building, and since not all of the jet fuel exploded or was vaporized on impact you could have situations where you had the proper fuel air mix to cause explosions. Also, when the buildings were collapsing you had explosive type sounds as the air was compressed and blew out the windows on its way down, sort of like collapsing an accordion. And finally, eye witness accounts are often confused and contradictory or conflated because people attempt to piece the fragments of what they saw or thought they saw/heard into the context of the greater story later on. As noted by others, however, explosives used in demolition are high explosives that don’t produce things like fireballs or Hollywood types of explosions.)
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