# My September 11 Thoughts
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 4, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989 "2014-06-04T02:41:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 37
### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/721 "2014-06-26T16:45:57Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> You know what’s missing here? Citation. The actual calculations. Any kind of a source. Come on, man, you say they exist, let’s see 'em. If you’re so sure it should be easy to show your work. You claim that the air-fuel ratio made it impossible for the jet fuel to travel like that. Prove it.
Oh, he’s got sources, alright. What he doesn’t have is _reputable, knowledgeable, competent, **honest** _ sources. And there’s no way at this late stage in the game that he doesn’t know what he’s spouting isn’t honest.
---
### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/722 "2014-06-26T19:24:37Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#):
>
> More like [four distinct spikes, which correspond to the towers being impacted by the planes and the ground being impacted by the towers](http://www.seeninside.net/911/sismica1.jpg).
So where are the two distinct spikes you claimed where there?
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/723 "2014-06-26T22:19:57Z")
> [@JohnT](#):
>
> My cousin was in the subway station when the first plane hit. He mentioned nothing about below-ground explosions.
>
> I mean, if we’re going to pull eyewitness accounts into this thread with no citations, then there we go.
Obviously your cousin is In On It.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/724 "2014-06-26T22:46:02Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#):
>
> Ah yes, now it’s my turn to be treated like psikeyhackr, who was calling for actual tests and who is now suspended.
>
> Good thing for me the AFR of kerosene is well known, and it’s easily proven that it is not possible for the planes fuel to travel down the elevator shafts of the WTC and cause the kind of destruction we saw and heard. There was just not that amount of oxygen available in the shafts to feed it.
If your model is **psikeyhacker** , then you would appear to be seeking martyrdom to revel in your ignorance. **psikeyhacker** did not just call for tests. He insisted that a specific type of test was the only one he would accept, even though he was shown numerous tests and models over the course of multiple threads over multiple years. And the one test in which he believed, (his own silly washers, paper rolls, and a dowel), was shown to be utterly worthless, yet he refused to modify it to actually test anything.
Now you enter the thread, invoking his name, and making multiple claims without a single shred of support beyond your say so.
You claim that “it is proven” that kerosene cannot fall down an elevator shaft. Where is that proof? Who has shown it to be true and where can we find this information?
You have made the claim that some number of unnamed people have claimed to have reported explosions prior to the planes hitting the building. Provide the citation that demonstrates that many people had that same experience and that they were actually in a position to know what was happening. We have no reason to accept your word.
(You claim that there would not have ben enough air in the elevator shafts to support the sort of fireball experienced at the ground level. That actually would support our position and refute yours. Large amounts of kerosene with small flames would easily have traveled down an elevator shaft, (gravity is funny in acting on all sorts of materials). Hitting the lower levels with opened doors, there would have been a larger supply of air that could have erupted in a fireball in the lobby. That makes more sense than mysterious fireballs that erupt with no known source.
We are not dismissive of you because you are one more CT adherent, (your ironic use of "true believers, notwithstanding), we are dismissive of your ancient claims that have been refuted and rebutted many times in the last twelve and a half years that you offer as declarations of TRUTH without a single source that supports your wild claims.
---
### Author:  [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/725 "2014-06-26T23:31:24Z")
[QUOTE=Budget Player Cadet]
You know what’s missing here? Citation.
[/QUOTE]
> [@Skywatcher](#):
>
> [Here’s one.](http://bridgetownblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/1981-chevrolet-citation.jpg)
> [@running\_coach](#):
>
> That’s a pretty shabby cite.
Would you prefer [this](http://www.rohdefineart.com/images/store/B439A.jpg)?
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/726 "2014-06-27T00:20:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> (gravity is funny in acting on all sorts of materials)
There’s also the possibility of a vacuum effect caused by falling elevators, thereby pulling fire along with them.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/727 "2014-06-27T01:36:19Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#):
>
> There’s also the possibility of a vacuum effect caused by falling elevators, thereby pulling fire along with them.
Nah. Elevator shafts are not close-fitting tubes around each elevator where they would act like piston cylinders. They are large vertical “rooms” with several elevators sharing the open space. If the elevators fell, they would all have to fall from the same floor at the same time to have any possible (if unlikely) effect of drawing flame down behind them.
---
### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/728 "2014-06-27T02:13:36Z")
You are correct that the elevators aren’t like a piston in a cylinder, the are similar to a car moving down the road. There is a low pressure area behind a rapidly moving object. Or to put it in terms a NASCAR fan would understand the jet fuel might have been drafting. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/729 "2014-06-27T02:19:05Z")
> [@Rick](#):
>
> You are correct that the elevators aren’t like a piston in a cylinder, the are similar to a car moving down the road. There is a low pressure area behind a rapidly moving object. Or to put it in terms a NASCAR fan would understand the jet fuel might have been drafting. 🙂
Does “drafting” apply if the cars are close together but going off in different directions?
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/730 "2014-06-27T02:28:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Does “drafting” apply if the cars are close together but going off in different directions?
Got any unreliable witnesses for that?
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### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/731 "2014-06-27T04:43:03Z")
> [@running\_coach](#):
>
> Got any unreliable witnesses for that?
Here is my cite. [Cessna Citation family - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_family)
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### Author:  [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/732 "2014-06-27T13:14:21Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> You know what’s missing here? Citation.
[But, but, I thought citations were a _bad_ thing!](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lWQqYKTUQJw/ThEeZCNxx7I/AAAAAAAAAG8/bZC8hhKUfrA/s1600/1.jpg)
---
### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/733 "2014-06-27T13:20:04Z")
> [@Gedd](#):
>
> [But, but, I thought citations were a _bad_ thing!](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lWQqYKTUQJw/ThEeZCNxx7I/AAAAAAAAAG8/bZC8hhKUfrA/s1600/1.jpg)
Actually, all jokes aside, Liam Scheff (a relatively prominent “conspiracy realist” who thinks that the very term “conspiracy theorist” is a conspiracy to discredit him and his ilk) actually believes that citations are a conspiracy. [No, I’m not even kidding.](http://mylespower.co.uk/2014/03/29/a-review-of-liam-scheffs-book-official-stories-911-a-perfect-tuesday-morning/)
> [@](#):
>
> Also for a book that claims to be “heavily-researched”, it seems to be missing quite a few references. In fact, it’s missing them all and instead has a list of things to google……I’m not kidding. Liam tries to defend this decision by saying that “Footnotes are tools that academics use to demonstrate to their professors that they can’t quite think on their own yet, don’t have any opinions of their own”.
(No, you colossal tool, footnotes are tools that academics use to demonstrate that their opinions aren’t pulled completely out of their asses. No wonder you’re so against them.)
---
### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/734 "2014-06-27T13:22:32Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> Actually, all jokes aside, Liam Scheff (a relatively prominent “conspiracy realist” who thinks that the very term “conspiracy theorist” is a conspiracy to discredit him and his ilk) actually believes that citations are a conspiracy. [No, I’m not even kidding.](http://mylespower.co.uk/2014/03/29/a-review-of-liam-scheffs-book-official-stories-911-a-perfect-tuesday-morning/)
>
> (No, you colossal tool, footnotes are tools that academics use to demonstrate that their opinions aren’t pulled completely out of their asses. No wonder you’re so against them.)
So he’s the original “My post is my cite” guy.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/735 "2014-06-27T13:45:35Z")
It’s simple logic regarding the elevators. If it was a bomb that blew the doors off the lobby elevator and brought down the building then the people who survived the elevator fire would be dead.
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### Author:  [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/736 "2014-06-27T13:58:13Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#):
>
> But then people who have decided what to BELIEVE don’t need or want accurate data. We would not want to confuse them with THE FACTS.
>
> They might have to come to conclusions about themselves which are not too flattering.
>
> psik
I believe that this quote exemplifies the “pot calling the kettle back”
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/737 "2014-06-27T14:07:51Z")
> [@Superdude](#):
>
> I believe that this quote exemplifies the “pot calling the kettle back”
More like “the black hole calling the kettle black.”
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/738 "2014-06-27T16:56:18Z")
> [@Gedd](#):
>
> [But, but, I thought citations were a _bad_ thing!](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lWQqYKTUQJw/ThEeZCNxx7I/AAAAAAAAAG8/bZC8hhKUfrA/s1600/1.jpg)
I once received a citation for bravery.
It was a $50 fine.
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### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/739 "2014-06-27T18:12:30Z")
My family had a Citation in the early 1980s. Pale yellow. Not a bad ride, as I recall.
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-september-11-thoughts/689989/740 "2014-06-27T18:37:51Z")
> [@Gedd](#):
>
> [But, but, I thought citations were a _bad_ thing!](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lWQqYKTUQJw/ThEeZCNxx7I/AAAAAAAAAG8/bZC8hhKUfrA/s1600/1.jpg)
[This](https://www.flickr.com/photos/patrolman/3035395061/) is a police citation.
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