# My sister has been saved. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 22, 2002, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017 "2002-08-22T01:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/21 "2002-08-23T05:49:01Z")
I see that being Pentacostal is automatically being “deluded and narrow minded”. At least I can’t really see another way to read that. You may tell me if I’m wrong. I’m not going to stop hanging around here and run off to some “Christian” board, because I’d have maybe even more problems over there ("Evolutionists are tools of Satan!), but it really wouldn’t kill people here to realize that this isn’t a devotedly atheistic board, and to think about the reactions that the cock-sure Christians get when they start fusses here. I think the same standards should apply both ways. Everyone has an opinion or viewpoint. It just would be nice to see them stated as such, instead of the more-than-implied assumption that anyone with two brain cells agrees that religion is a crock. Now, I use the term “born-again”, and I happen to think it’s a good term (well, it’s from Jesus, so that’s a good source in Christianity, eh?). However, there are quite a number of nuts in the church in general. It just really bugs me how badly-socialized and kind-of-creepy people are allowed to stand for so many Christians or religious people, but we on this board would NEVER, EVER let that go for a nationality or a skin color. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/22 "2002-08-23T09:48:20Z")
Regarding my assertion that AA is ineffective, **LouisB** said: > [@](#): > > I would really like to see a cite for these “studies.” Sure, how’s this? > [@](#): > > Only two studies have employed random assignment and adequate controls to compare the efficacy of AA versus no intervention or alternative interventions. Brandsma, et al. (1980) found no difference at 12-month follow-up between AA and no treatment, and at three-month follow-up, those assigned to AA were found to be significantly more likely to be binge drinking, relative to controls or those assigned to other interventions. > > Bitman and Crawford (1966) assigned court-mandated “alcohol addicts” to AA, clinic treatment, or no treatment (probation only). Based on records of re-arrest, 31% of AA clients and 32% of clinic-treated clients were judged successful, as compared with 44% > success in the untreated group. Most recovery from alcoholism is not the result of treatment. > > Probably no more than 10% of alcohol abusers are ever treated at all, but as many as 40% recover spontaneously (The Harvard Medical School Mental Health Letter, “Alcohol Abuse and Dependence”). Several studies have shown that those who quit drinking via AA actually have higher relapse rates than those who quit on their own (Stanton Peel, Diseasing of America: Addiction Testament Out of Control). > [@](#): > > And, AA does NOT tell one that nothing is under one’s control. Huh? They don’t? From the [horse’s mouth](http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/english/E_FactFile/M-24_d6.html): _1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable._ Powerless. No control. So how do you get that control back? Why, these other steps could prove quite helpful: \*2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 1. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 2. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 3. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.\* In other words, turn your life over to god and let him sort through your miserable mess. So I guess if you’re in AA and go on a bender, maybe you weren’t entirely ready to receive the awesome power of god’s good graces. Maybe you hadn’t asked the almighty savior quite humbly enough to remove your shortcomings. Give me a break. Addiction is a disease. Diseases demand the attention of medical science, not the empty promises of preachers. > [@](#): > > Further, if AA is “about as effective as no treatment at all”, how do you account for the recovering alcoholics whom AA has helped regain their lives? As mentioned in the quote above, most people quit spontaneously. If someone is ready to quit and _could_ quit on their own, but instead decide to go through a 12 step program, AA/NA is just taking credit for what would have happened anyway. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/23 "2002-08-23T14:02:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > \*\* > Everyone has an opinion or viewpoint. It just would be nice to see them stated as such, instead of the more-than-implied assumption that anyone with two brain cells agrees that religion is a crock. > \*\* I hope you don’t think that is what I was doing. My _opinion_\* is that the guy described in the OP was rude and intrusive, and that his actions were highly inappropriate in a business setting. My observation that there seem to be a lot of former addicts in the more charismatic religions is one I believe to be valid, but it is not an observation intended to dismiss religion. You may choose to use the term “born again” and feel that it is apt, follow the tenets of your church and be a perfectly normal human being. That does not mean that other people who use the term aren’t goofballs. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/24 "2002-08-23T14:48:55Z")
**neutron star,** the cites you provide seem to deal with people who have been ordered by a court to attend AA meetings. Ordering an alcoholic to stop drinking is akin to the old adage about leading a horse to water, but being unable to make him drink. I doubt the most fervent admirer of AA would claim that AA can motivate anyone to stop drinking **unless the person wants to stop** —the desire to stop has to be there in the first place. AA can and does help plenty of alcoholics stop drinking, if they first want to. As to the control issue, AA states that the alcoholic has no control over alcohol, not that they have no control over anything at all. References to God have, I think but am not certain, been largely replaced by references to a “Higher Power,” which can be whatever one wants it to be. In my case, I used a small quartz crystal as an example of order as opposed to the chaos of my own life. You seem to be ignoring the part that says, in respect to God, “as we understood him.” That does not necessarily mean the Christian God—the invisible pink unicorn will serve, if that is what you need. You are correct in saying that addiction is a disease, but you might be surprised at the number of people who will argue that it is not. It is, though, a disease for which there is not, at the moment, a cure—all one can do is to refrain from using whatever one is addicted to. IF AA can help someone refrain, then more power to them—if they can quit cold turkey, as an uncle of mine did, then more power to them. Some people, me included, need the help provided by a support group and AA (and NA) fill that need admirably. Other support groups might work equally well and, if they do, that’s great. My experience is with AA and it worked for me. As to relapses, some people are weak and addiction is very powerful–sometimes the addiction wins. At any rate, we seem to be hi-jacking this thread, and we ought not to do that. Thanks, though, for the references. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/25 "2002-08-23T15:33:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I hope you don’t think that is what I was doing. My _opinion_ is that the guy described in the OP was rude and intrusive, and that his actions were highly inappropriate in a business setting. Of course it was. There are a lot of weirdos in the church. I admitted that. Boy, do I have some stories… AAMOF, I kind of regard the number of weirdos in my church as a badge of honor. I don’t think that they would have felt comfortable enough at my old church to stay more than shortly. Better they be attending my church en mass than be shunted aside because they don’t fit in. It isn’t really you who has been making disparaging statements. I think we all know them when we read the text above. (It might not seem all that disparaging to some of you, but let me come over and make fun of your family some time and act like it’s a given…) > [@](#): > > It is also my observation that, of those people I know who DO go on and on about their religious convictions, most will use the specific term “born again.” See, there are alternative explanations for things from the other side of the fence. Mine is that being born-again is quite a revolutionary experience, one that you want to tell people about, and share with them as they experience it too. Think of that idea of telling people about the fabulous movie you just saw, and take it to the 10th power. Sooooooo, you have these poorly socialized people who have been through a terrible time in life, they have this wonderful experience, they hear the exhortations in church to not be timid in telling people, and they don’t know how to go about it properly. They don’t bring it up in appropriate contexts with people they have built an actual close relationship with, or in a situation people expect to hear that kind of thing. No, they blurt it out all over with very little tact. It doesn’t help that many times in the church, the people who get the most recognition are those who are “winning the most souls.” There is often a concentration on evangelizing instead of being who God wants you to be, and letting things happen from there. > [@](#): > > My observation that there seem to be a lot of former addicts in the more charismatic religions is one I believe to be valid Quite. Of course, here again the Other Side of the Fence comes into play. I can just as easily say that these are the groups that offer something that can actually help the addicts, and in an accessible way. After that, it’s very hard for a pastor to keep track of what 500 (or many more) people are doing out about town. Most of the stories would never even make it back, so many of these kinds of problems go untreated. This assuming that the pastor is the type to actually address reality anyway, and not just want to ignore it so that he can pretend that he’s running an Ozzie and Harriet type church. As the token religious freak here, I’ll come right out and say that I think **neutron star** is probably right that many of these people have to a certain extent substituted one addiction for another. This doesn’t make their point automatically invalid any more than it would make baseball a bad game just because there are people who obsess about the stats and spend way too much money on the merchandise. I think my point still stands about these assuming and attacking atheistic statements getting a pass around here that would never be given the religious ones. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/26 "2002-08-23T17:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > \*\*That carpet story is commonly told about Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, CA. You can hardly drive in Orange County (especially) and L.A. County without passing a daughter church of this one. > > Mind you, I have some nits to pick with Chuck, but he’s not the wacko this guy might seem to imply. It’s something like the third biggest church in the country, so by all laws of averages, it HAS to have some weirdos attending. \*\* Ummm…hehe. I go to a Calvary Chapel here in So Cal where Chuck Smith Jr. is the pastor. I’ve been to many churches and this one is the best I’ve ever been too. It’s definately a church you can go to in your most casual attire and no one cares. My SO and I have been going for about 5 years and though the church is quite big we only know 1 or 2 people personally. I guess we’re kind of the loner types. Guess I’ll take the blame for being one of the “weirdos” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/27 "2002-08-23T18:42:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by neutron star \* > \*\*Studies have repeatedly shown that AA/NA is about as effective as _no treatment at all!_ It’s also more likely to make participants relapse in a BIG way, since AA tells them that nothing is under their control. …Secular, non-12-step recovery programs have shown significantly higher recovery rates, but they remain relatively rare. > \*\* OK, so we aren’t in GD. Cite? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/28 "2002-08-23T19:09:41Z")
Eh, what the hell, **Shodan**. This thread’s headed that direction anyhow 😛 I know the mods can combine threads; can they split them, too? For the record, **Rysdad** , sis picked C. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/29 "2002-08-23T19:26:22Z")
Just FTR I would _never_ force anyone to pray with me. I don’t believe in being pushy like that in any way. The only time I have ever witnessed to anyone IRL is when they asked me about my faith and even then I’m still hesitant to ask them if they want me to pray with them. I guess everyone sees “go out into the world and spread the gospel” in their own way. ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/30 "2002-08-24T03:16:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I see that being Pentacostal is automatically being “deluded and narrow minded”. At least I can’t really see another way to read that. You may tell me if I’m wrong. Sorry, but I’m so sure in my beliefs that I always offend the religious, Christians especially. I forget that the delusional belief in ‘God’ is fundamental to their self-image. Any reference to the inanity of their belief is considered a direct attack – circle the wagons time. Perhaps rightly so. Deluded - god is a delusional construct, a sop for the masses. It’s a figment of your imagination. Narrow minded - Believing that 2000 year-old morals and tenets apply today, and that the historical fairy tale known as ‘the bible’ is a literal plan for good living. Let’s not even get into the whole ‘speaking in tongues’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/31 "2002-08-24T09:58:12Z")
I need go no further to prove my point, Danalan. You do it better than I ever could. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/32 "2002-08-24T14:12:07Z")
We’re not all atheists here… I hope you acknowledge that, but realize that the scales are a bit unbalanced as far as religion goes on _any_ message board. This message board is no different; it just tips the scales in a different direction. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > Mine is that being born-again is quite a revolutionary experience, one that you want to tell people about, and share with them as they experience it too. Think of that idea of telling people about the fabulous movie you just saw, and take it to the 10th power. ``` I went through a similar experience upon discovering my current religion. For years, I had terrible experiences emotionally and mentally with the church I was forced to attend by my parents. Suddenly, after looking through books on all sorts of other religions, I stumbled across Paganism. As I kept reading, I discovered that my inner beliefs matched the book's text *almost verbatim.* (excuse the bad grammar; it's early) I feel the same way about finding my religion as you do, but, if I were to talk about it casually in most contexts, I would get more negative responses than positive ones. And, because of my beliefs and the lack of knowledge amongst people who are not Pagan, (I find this most common in Christians who haven't been exposed to any other religion) I normally get called some pretty ugly things and told I'm "going to hell" because of what they think I believe. Trust me, the ten commandments agree with the Wiccan Rede on many points. The biggest difference would be the fact that Pagans and Wiccans don't prosletyze. They respect the fact that, because the world isn't populated with *just one* specific person cloned several billion times, there are going to be differing beliefs amongst the masses. ``` > [@](#): > > There is often a concentration on evangelizing instead of being who God wants you to be, and letting things happen from there. That’s really unfortunate that a lot of people center their religion on how many people they can rope into changing their personal beliefs. Sometimes it’s a good thing for someone to change religions, while, at other times, it’s a horrible thing. For example, look up the Spanish Inquisition or the Burning Times. > [@](#): > > I think my point still stands about these assuming and attacking atheistic statements getting a pass around here that would never be given the religious ones. I’m sorry you feel that way… I’m just hoping that your definition of “religious ones” does include people other than those who attend services at a church, temple, or mosque. Pagans and Wiccans don’t always have the choice of worshipping in group settings because there are still a great many people who _will not accept_ the fact that we’re not bad people. Also, some of us worship our god/dess(s/es) on our own because we feel that, because our individual beliefs form and mold our religion, our religion is sacred to ourselves alone. ---
**Author:** ![\_etalhea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/779978/32.png) [@\_etalhea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_etalhea)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/33 "2002-08-24T15:10:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > \*\*…and to think about the reactions that the cock-sure Christians get when they start fusses here. I think the same standards should apply both ways. > \*\* **Cock-sure Christians!** , what a great band name that would be!!! ---
**Author:** ![\_etalhea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/779978/32.png) [@\_etalhea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_etalhea)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/34 "2002-08-24T15:34:05Z")
Got Paganism? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/35 "2002-08-24T16:56:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danalan \* > **Sorry, but I’m so sure in my beliefs that I always offend the religious, Christians especially. I forget that the delusional belief in ‘God’ is fundamental to their self-image.** Come on, that’s bull. Of _course_ you don’t “forget” that the belief in God is fundamental to the self-image of a Christian. I mean, in a word: duh. What you’re doing here is deliberately opposing Christians in a confrontational way, and with a broad brush. I think we all agree the gentleman described in the OP was an ass: I see Christians and non-Christians chiming in to say just that. Unfortunately, I only see _one_ poster who deliberately and repeatedly is going for some shock value. A little decorum, if you please? Differing in beliefs does not equal differing in manners. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/36 "2002-08-24T17:51:20Z")
I was going to merely ask “Saved from What?”, but I see the answer was “Boredom”. 🙂 Sadly, you meet people like that. All gung-ho for their new belief, the first thing they forget is common courtesy and decorum. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/37 "2002-08-24T18:47:05Z")
This thread keeps reminding me of that exchange in _O Brother Where Art Thou_ > [@](#): > > **Tommy Johnson** : I had to be up at that there crossroads last midnight, to sell my soul to the devil. > > **Ulysses Everett McGill** : Well, ain’t it a small world, spiritually speaking. Pete and Delmar just been baptized and saved. I guess I’m the only one that remains unaffiliated. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/38 "2002-08-24T18:51:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\*Ummm…hehe. I go to a Calvary Chapel here in So Cal where Chuck Smith Jr. is the pastor. I’ve been to many churches and this one is the best I’ve ever been too. It’s definately a church you can go to in your most casual attire and no one cares. My SO and I have been going for about 5 years and though the church is quite big we only know 1 or 2 people personally. I guess we’re kind of the loner types. > > Guess I’ll take the blame for being one of the “weirdos” \*\* Hey, now we know what church **dreamer** attends, this might be interesting in future discussions. But does this congregation follow the practices of the one in the story, is she in fact one of the “weirdos”? Well, that depends. Do you have people at your church who “speak in tongues”, like the guy in this story did? If so, then yeah I guess you’re one of the “weirdos”. I won’t lie and say I think speaking in tongues is normal. Not so bad as the snake-dancing Christians, but not far off either. Though I’m an athiest, I don’t have concerns about friends and family who are Christians, despite what I think about their beliefs and practices. It’s harmless. I would be _very_ concerned about a friend or family member joining a church were people spoke in tongues, and would probably have the same reaction as the person in the story did: get a deprogrammer. > [@](#): > > \*\*Just FTR I would _never_ force anyone to pray with me. I don’t believe in being pushy like that in any way. The only time I have ever witnessed to anyone IRL is when they asked me about my faith and even then I’m still hesitant to ask them if they want me to pray with them. > > I guess everyone sees “go out into the world and spread the gospel” in their own way. \*\* Well, that’s good to hear. Believe me, there are plenty of people to take that role when you decline it. I’ve had to hide my atheism from co-workers on several occasions just to avoid those situations. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/39 "2002-08-24T20:49:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chique \* > \*\*Eh, what the hell, **Shodan**. This thread’s headed that direction anyhow 😛 I know the mods can combine threads; can they split them, too? \*\* Yes, they can split them. I don’t think they often do, here, though. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017/40 "2002-08-24T20:52:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mirrored Indigo Shadows \* > \*\*Suddenly, after looking through books on all sorts of other religions, I stumbled across Paganism. As I kept reading, I discovered that my inner beliefs matched the book’s text _almost verbatim._ \*\* I had the exact same experience. What book was it for you? For me it was “Wicca, a guide for the solitary practitioner” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-sister-has-been-saved/125017.md?page=3)